Squishy diamonds

[peterjohnson64]

I recently purchased a new aviary for a pair of integrades and I had it placed with a SW aspect. It doesn't get a huge amount of sun so I was going to move it to an area with a northerley aspect. However, listening to what serpentongue is saying, as long as they can bask somewhere I am probably on the money? thoughts? Seconldy, do only diamonds get this? and if so, why, when carpets are the same species?

 

[peterescue]

re Squishy

Can you fill me in on the reports of wild diamonds displaying the syndrome olivehydra,cant say ive ever seen a wild one with it ,ive seen that many sick diamonds and even coastals with it.Ive seen it mentioned about wild diamonds with it and no one went on to mention where and when etc and if they were examined by vetinarians. Cheersw colin

Dave and Tracy Barker reported it in the early nineties at Weigels park with a wild individual that was being housed temporarily before relocation. My memory aint that great so correct the where and when if anyone knows.

It may have been classified as a wild specimen but this could not be substantiated and was anecdotal.
Like most Anagramatic diseases the symptoms are demonstareted by a multitude of other diseases and not necessarily symptomatic of DPS but do not rule it out.

 

[zulu]

re Squishy

There are a few different schools of thought re D.S. Personally I feel that it is temp driven and that diamonds should be cooled over winter even if not cycling for breeding. Lowering night time temps is also a good idea and outdoor housing in your area would do no harm. I have heard reports of wild diamonds with DS so I suppose the jury is definetly still out on this one. Yes the small head (pin head syndrome) is a sign of powerfeeding but most usually catch up to the norm. Exercise be it handling or "walkies" will help in improving muscle tone.

There must be something right about yout theory hydra.
I did not heard many cases of diamond syndrom from people who are keeping them outside all year long. Mabe the temperature drops during the night and winter is the magic.

If anybody who is keeping diamonds outside had diamond syndrom problem, please post it here, it would be nice to confirm if this is right.

Slatey they get sick with syndrome just the same outdoors,if it were as easy as just puting them outside ide be very happy so would many others,i think sepentongue has had animals with tumours etc that have been kept outside.If they cant cool down effectively in the heat of day they wont do well,i had a packing box outside that onley got morning sun and was sheltered from the west,that was a good setup.Youknow putting them outside sure its better than inside causer they get some more coolingbut ive seen heaps of dead ones that were kept outside,and remember outside diamond and carpet aviaries and packing box type setups have been the go for many years.Ive seen them go lacklustre and get tumours outside in several collections be warned because the people in question were very upset and disappointed when there snakes were dying,Yeh i remember a lady showing me the tumours in diamonds mouths its tragic stuff really and trust me slatey they was outside but what do you do ,ide still keep them outside anyway.

 

[Linus]

This is a very interesting thread and i am learnign a lot.

It is a little confusing isn't it though! If keepers that keep their diamonds in outdoor aviarys still experience DPS, then how can it be confirmed that temp. is the key? i.e if Serpent tongue - who seems to be a very experienced diamond keeper - still has run into problems with outdoor enclosures and proper cooling then can't we deduct that that isn't the sole cause? Or are they separate issues?

Not having a go at anyone at all - just hypothesizing....maybe I missed something.

 

[serpenttongue]

I recently purchased a new aviary for a pair of integrades and I had it placed with a SW aspect. It doesn't get a huge amount of sun so I was going to move it to an area with a northerley aspect. However, listening to what serpentongue is saying, as long as they can bask somewhere I am probably on the money? thoughts? Seconldy, do only diamonds get this? and if so, why, when carpets are the same species?

I think it's better not to think of diamonds as a species of carpet, but as their own species. I think it'll help you when it comes to their husbandry needs.

I discussed DPS with Barker via email last year and he believed intergrades and diamond/carpet hybrids can get DPS as easily as diamonds. However i have never come across any that showed signs of it.

I've always felt that diamonds are the opposite of other pythons. Where other pythons prefer to be warm, with the opportunity to cool down, i think diamonds like to be kept cool, with the opportunity to warm up.

 

[serpenttongue]

Also as Zulu said, i have a diamond that had a tumor cut out from behind its left eye. This diamond had always been kept outdoors until last winter when i brought it indoors for winter cooling. I'ts first time ever indoors, and following this it got a tumor. However it is 11 years old and maybe age comes into this.

About 5 years ago i had a coastal carpet which was kept indoors and this also developed tumors in the mouth and throat. The ones in the throat were so big it looked like it had 2 golf balls stuck in the throat.

I started to believe temperature had something to do with it. This got me thinking about wild snakes and temps, and i had a slight revelation. Whenever i came across snakes in the wild, no matter what time of day, almost all of them were doing nothing! They were always hidden in cool places under logs, under thick damp leaflitter, rock crevices etc. When i thought they should be basking, they were just staying cool.

So i decided to drop my cage temps slightly. Instead of keeping Olives, Bredls, carpets, spotteds, BHP's etc with a warm end on 31-32 degrees, i dropped it to 28-29. Since then i have noticed that it has done wonders for all my pythons. Much more active,alert and lean bodied. Cant say whether this will avoid tumors, DPS or whatever else, but i think its a step in the right direction

 

[zulu]

This is a very interesting thread and i am learnign a lot.

It is a little confusing isn't it though! If keepers that keep their diamonds in outdoor aviarys still experience DPS, then how can it be confirmed that temp. is the key? i.e if Serpent tongue - who seems to be a very experienced diamond keeper - still has run into problems with outdoor enclosures and proper cooling then can't we deduct that that isn't the sole cause? Or are they separate issues?

Not having a go at anyone at all - just hypothesizing....maybe I missed something.

Linus,Serpentongue has still kep and bred them longer than most so thats good enough for me,if you kept an indoors all the time its likely that it would get DPS quicker than one kept outdoors.No one knows definetively why DPS occurs as yet but we know contributing factors are lack of adequate cooling and hibernation period etc also possible UV its just bad aid remedies really like the best we can do,not a whole lot has changed since Dave Barkers account in POW Vol 1 .

 

[zulu]

re Squishy

Come to the same conclusion with heat serpentongue,thats why i got a dimmer and heatgun,ive got bhps that go to the coolest end of theirlog enclosures under paper hiding and when i check their body temp its 22c.Ide say that snakes ive had die in the past would have been(most probably)the result of high temps especially in summer and this breaks down their immunity resulting in secondary conditions.The black alpine type blotch blue tongues soak up heat like diamond pythons also and ive noticed they sun very early like 7 or 8 AM in warm weather then retreat like diamonds to cool hides. Cheers colin.

 

[serpenttongue]

Also regarding their feeding, when kept indoors diamonds can pretty much be fed whenever the keeper feels like it. This often leads to overfeeding, which i think is quite taxing to a diamonds internal organs. Their just not a python that should have food pumped into them. This may help bring on DPS. Too many diamonds are overfed. If you look at a long term captive diamond you'll see it usually has a rounded body. Look at a wild one and you'll see its body is slightly laterally compressed.

As my diamonds are outdoors, i can only feed them when weather permits. I will only feed them if i know that the week ahead will be warm enough for them to digest meals. If not, they wont be fed. This means that my diamonds miss out on a lot of meals, while my indoors species are pigging out!! In any given year my adult diamonds may only get 10-12 meals, but this keeps them lean, alert and active.

 

[Linus]

Linus,Serpentongue has still kep and bred them longer than most so thats good enough for me

Absoloutely Zulu. Wasn't questioning ST at all- I consider him to be the diamond expert of the site! Just curious about how the theories have come about.

 

[serpenttongue]

re Squishy

ive got bhps that go to the coolest end of theirlog enclosures under paper hiding and when i check their body temp its 22c.

Interesting you should say that zulu. I know a BHP keeper that keeps his quite cool(for BHP standards). Whenever he gets one out and i hold it, its body is actually cold! The weird thing is, they're doing so well. Digesting food easily and their growth is very rapid. They do have the opportunity to bask at high temps, but they seem to prefer staying cool.

 

[Stevo]

I always enjoy reading your posts Serpenttongue, always informative and you never come across arrogant. I would just like to know when you said you only feed your outdoor diamonds depending on the weeks weather, what would the minimums be for you to be happy to feed them? ie 25 - 28 max temps roughly for the next 4 or 5 days?
Cheers Stevo

 

[Slateman]

Most interesting thread this one. I had impression that outside kept diamonds with nice cool hiding box are safe from diamond syndrom. I am learning again that I am wrong. There is so much to learn in this hobby.

 

[serpenttongue]

Um...so long as its a warm week without cold winds then i'll feed them. I'm not really concerned with how cold the nights get, just as long as the days are warm. I wont feed if its cold and windy, regardless of whether or not the suns out, as the cold wind blowing across their bodies keeps them from warming up. I'll feed them on rainy days as long as the air temps are satisfactory and yes, 25-28 degrees are okay to me, but i would go as low as 22 and just decrease the size of their meals to help digest them quicker. Diamonds can still digest food at low temps. I've had them digest food during weeks with temps around 15-18 degrees but it's something i dont like to do to them. I guess i just follow my gut instincts and as soon as i walk out my back door i can tell whether or not its a week for diamond feeding. But overall, if it's a cold rainy week, feeding is off.

 

[zen]

Fascinating read everyone.

Being a Diamond keeper, knowing about D.P.S is absolutely essential :!:

After reading this thread I feel that I'm closer to understanding this most mysterious of diseases.


Thanks especially to Serpenttongue for all your insightful & informative posts, as always.
Your contributions are invaluable to Diamond keepers like myself.


Peterrescue, I was wondering what an "Anagramatic disease" is. :?:
You stated that D.P.S is such a disease, but I've never heard the term before.
Could you please elaborate on this?


Great stuff!


zen

 

[fishead]

Howdy guys, my diamonds are outside and are still not feeding. They didn't feed until november last year as well. Still the local breeding season I guess.
I think the key to housing them properly outside is to give them all of the options to self regulate. Same as any enclosure I guess hey. As mzilikazi said very important to give them a cool burrow/hide in a well shaded area but just as important is that they can bask in the morning sun through winter - a northerly aspect.
Bye, Steve.

 

[zulu]

re Squishy

Linus,Serpentongue has still kep and bred them longer than most so thats good enough for me

Absoloutely Zulu. Wasn't questioning ST at all- I consider him to be the diamond expert of the site! Just curious about how the theories have come about.

Trial and error ide say Linus especially with blokews like ST that have kept diamonds in captivity for a fair period, St talks of some failures in his posts like the one where he says they had tumours etc i like that i know ime getting the full storey.I ve kept diamonds and carpets myself onley for brief periods of up to two years since about 1970 and from 80 till 97 i made a lot of field observations,so while ime average in respect to captive husbandry i know the wild behaviour of spilota on the south coast of NSW well (at least in the Illawarra anyway) .

 

[meshe1969]

We are planning on getting two diamonds early next year should we build them an outdoor enclosure instead of an indoor one? We are from the western suburbs of Melbourne. Thankyou.

 

[reptililian]

This has indeed been most enlightening. Serpenttounge, I really value your experience and willingness to share it with others. I can't thank you enough. In particular, I like what you say about temps for snakes in general. My scalies are really lovely creatures, and thanks to you (and others who provided info on this thread) I now know what is best for them. For a moment I was considering offering you all five of my diamonds and sticking to something a little easier, like my pending chondros! :wink:

Zulu, I think we should be using wild behaviour as a guideline for how to keep our reptiles. If they only bask until 10am and eschew heat, provide them with appropriately similar conditions in captivity. Thus observations of people like yourself are invaluable to us as they us let us know what sort of conditions we should be trying to emulate. Thankyou to you also.

What I seem to keep hearing from the really experienced people - who have learnt through years of trail and error, success and loss - is to go easy on the feed, and go easy on the heat. Please continue to shout out your message loud and clear until all there are no more fat, overheated slugs out there. Unfortunately there is a lot of incorrect/old info floating around (books, etc), and while newbies like me may be doing what we THINK is correct, it's no good if our best intentions end up killing our pet.

 

[serpenttongue]

For a moment I was considering offering you all five of my diamonds

Yeah, so what's stopping ya? :lol: There's still time. Ready when you are!! :lol: