whats your views of wild caught snakes in captivity???

[longqi]

We use 90% wild caught snakes here
The vast majority are bought from restaurants and the largest percentage of those are de-ticked wormed fed and released in west bali national park
We only keep one or two each week
Anyone who has been here can attest to the fact that they settle into captivity extremely well
Even adult retics/burmese and chondros seem to adapt fairly quickly
We only had one that refused to eat

Admittedly we are in a totally different culture to yours
I would not support the collection of most species in Australia because of the fragility of most Australian ecosystems
If there was any possibility of breeding for release/restocking I would support that
[especially for one "lost" snake from way up North]
I think we have enough genetic diversity already in the reptiles captive bred in Australia

 

[Elapidae1]

Are our ecosystems that fragile? and is the removal of reptiles enough to tip the balance? Do you have an example where an ecosystem has been irreversibly altered by the removal of reptiles?

 

[waruikazi]

The odd animal taken from here and there won't have a significant effect on the ecosystem.

 

[longqi]

Reintroduction programs for a species is a far more complex scenario than some people are aware, at present there is an incredibly high failure rate for successful reintroductions globally. A reintroduction program relies on the successful cooperation of scientists, breeding facilities (zoological), governments, communities, financial funding and years of preliminary and follow up observations, and still the chances of success are incredibly low.

Simply releasing animals to increase localized abundance is highly irresponsible and will most likely result in all introduced animals mortality and could reduce the communities fitness and survival.

We are mainly talking about reptiles here and I believe the success rate for reintroducing reptiles is much higher than other other species
As long as they were reintroduced into National parks or land reserved for them I can see no real problems
For example Australian chondros could be easily released into the Iron mountain area to increase numbers there with probably great success because of that areas isolation
Murray Darlings are much harder simply because of the human element over most of their range
One of the biggest problems is all the idiots who feel they have to have a vested interest in doing this
Instead of the list you gave all that is really required is very simple
A very good dedicated breeder
One scientist to do one test, ie checking the genetic suitability of the captive bred reptiles
One vet to do health checks on the reptiles prior to release

But everyone else wants in on the deal and each party has a different agenda
That is the biggest reason reintroduction fails

The odd animal taken from here and there won't have a significant effect on the ecosystem.

That is wonderful in theory but if Tom collects one animal then Jerry wants to collect two and so on

As an example of impact on ecosystems just look at crocodilians
They were virtually wiped out less than 50 years ago
I was not there but that must had a huge impact on the local ecosystem
[I actually totally support the sustainable culling of crocs]

 

[waruikazi]

That is wonderful in theory but if Tom collects one animal then Jerry wants to collect two and so on

As an example of impact on ecosystems just look at crocodilians
They were virtually wiped out less than 50 years ago
I was not there but that must had a huge impact on the local ecosystem
[I actually totally support the sustainable culling of crocs]

And that is the exact reason why i think collection permits are neccesary. So it can be controlled and feed the demand for wild animals. I don't like the way some of the permits are run and handed out but that is another story.

Crocodiles are a little different to other reptiles. The adults are not cryptic and are easy targets. Besides, during the days when crocs were not protected, it wasn't just the odd animal that was shot here or there. It was persistant and uncontrolled hunting.

I hate the idea of unlimited taking from the wild with a passion. I was a full time catcher in Darwin during 2008, i really enjoyed the job and i was making a living out of it (no too many snake catchers can say they did that lol) but i quit because the people i was working for were taking full advantage of our collection permit. Everything was being kept and was housed in disgusting conditions.

But the odd animal, especially the common species, taken here and there will not cause the extinction of anything or cause the collapse an ecosystem.

 

[Australis]

There have been a few release programs I have been aware of eg Condors, Murray Darlings. The condor release program there is a great documentary on it can't remember the name of the documentary but still. Showing the ridiculous efforts in selection of area selection of stock to be released and the raising of the stock and keeping track of them throughout their lives. Saying that releasing a Dog into dingo territory would be absorbed that I wouldn't be too sure, look at what happened with the American Bison and cattle. A majority of the Bison remaining are hybrids of the sort. (This is an extreme scenario and there was a lot more variables to do with it but still). Now correct me if I am wrong but wasn't one of the Albino Darwins found then breed and released? Now back to the thread topic Wild Caught snakes in captivity. I think that A: All snakes came from it in a sense. B: You don't have a guarantee that the nice man you bought your snakes off of didn't catch them. C: So long as they are looked after and treated well whats the problem? and D: Where else will we get genetic diversity in the hobby?

Also the condor example is an excellent example of a very successful captive breeding program... the last of the wild condors were taken into captivity.
The captive population increased greatly, however the cause of the condors demise
wasn't adequately addressed, and released CB condors are still dieing prematurely for the same reasons they were prior to captive breeding program.

Your wrong about the Albino Darwin, it was borrowed and returned, not bred and released.

 

[crocodile_dan]

My post was not about reptiles, it was a general overview of all reintroduction programs, as there seemed to be some misconceptions of the simple release of animals will be beneficial. I would agree that reptiles would be better accustomed to a reintroduction program compared with many other animals as some steps necessary for reintroduction are not applicable to reptiles and some other groups. One study by one Scientist would not be comprehensive enough.

Without all of the organizations I mentioned a reintroduction project would at best be left to chance, it could most likely be defined as a success as the term success (regarding reintroductions) is often defined differently amongst groups and studies. Whilst reintroduction programs are not my field I can provide further details.

Your correct every group does have a different agenda so to successfully establish a program you must provide each group with a positive benefit from the outcome so that they have a vested interest in the program. That is one of the obstacles that needs addressing during the proposal of a reintroduction program.

 

[longqi]

But the biggest problem remains the infighting between the groups with vested interest
If for example NPWS say that there has been a huge decline in Coastal Carpets near Nelson Bay because of severe bushfires
There is a simple problem that is easily fixed
use One scientist to check the genetics of the breeders stock
one vet to check the health
release the animals

When we include all the others things go wrong mainly because of 'their vested interest'
The KISS method works

 

[Fuscus]

I would not support the collection of most species in Australia because of the fragility of most Australian ecosystems

We do quite a bit of that already, but tend to use car tyres.

 

[Australis]

But the biggest problem remains the infighting between the groups with vested interest
If for example NPWS say that there has been a huge decline in Coastal Carpets near Nelson Bay because of severe bushfire
There is a simple problem that is easily fixed
use One scientist to check the genetics of the breeders stock
one vet to check the health
release the animals

When we include all the others things go wrong mainly because of 'their vested interest'
The KISS method works

Your over simplifying it beyond belief... please get your hands on a conservation-biology text book.

I don't even know where to start with your bushfire example?
If bushfire was cited as the cause of decline, a natural increase can follow.

I mean really its like buying 10,000 acre property and doing a fauna survey, then modifying the habitat thru clearing, conducting another survey to find a decline.
And to then release captive bred replacement animals into a Barron field.

ex-situ vs in-situ conservation models are of particular interest to me, cite some examples
(from journals) of success? because there is a mountain of failures.

 

[crocodile_dan]

I said that was an obstacle, as such I am agreeing with you that it is an issue. I said that most programs are not successful, that's not to say that to an extent they weren't successful. It depends on how a program is classified as a success.

Using your example if your objective was to increase the local population then you would be successful in increasing the local population of coastals in the Nelson Bay area. Then looking at other criteria there is no data to follow up on to class the program as a success without involving more funding, time, personnel or organizations, so you cannot conclude that the program was a success over a range of criteria as there is no data.

 

[Red-Ink]

I wonder if people that ohhh and ahhh when a new locality form of a species of reptileis is shown in the forums, swiftly followed by I WANT ONE realise that that specimen didn't walk/slither into captivity......

 

[DanN]

This is a topic on which I regularly fluctuate - and one I have a little to do with.

When asking is it "good" that WC animals be brought into captivity we need to look at who is is it good for.

Animals that enter the pet trade, whether collected illegally or with a permit are not taken for the purpose of conservation. The one exception IMO is the RSP example. Animals taken, breed, and are distributed cheaply into the trade.

Conservation value = people are deterred from further collection because they can easily obtain captive bred stock for a reasonable price - great.

Reintroduction - why? Unless a species has become extirpated there is no need. Unless the initial threatening process is addressed (i.e habitat loss) then the individuals reintroduced will likely die also.

The only thing keeping reptiles has to do with conservation is education. But again, who are we educating. Many reptile keepers are very closed, know little about their animals in the wild and even less about their status or conservation needs (not all I know, but many).

Most of the responses on here are " without wild-caught we would not have a trade". SO!
Should more reptiles be taken from the wild. No (for the most part). There are hundreds in captivity anyway - just because there is a huge demand does not mean there is a need.

****Computer has buggered my post - content missing - sorry.

2cents

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Individual morality aside, wild collecting continues to offer variety choice, locality specific,and genetic diversity. So as long as this practice is sustainable, why the hell not ?

 

[longqi]

Yes I over simplified that example
But the main points are still very valid
When two or more bureaucracies are involved something always goes wrong
The welfare of the animals is forgotten in the race to get kudos/money from the operation
Right now I am involved in attempting to restock an area in Papua with Chondros from that locality
BKSDA is the equivalent of NPWS and they gave huge amounts of help in getting this arranged
Everything was going fine with little government interference
Now that it looks like we can have maybe 100 hatchlings and 25 young adults soon ready for release the s... has hit the fan
Everyone wants on board
Even the bloody army as they say they will have to escort the releasers
Funny they never escorted me anywhere before??
Botanists have demanded to do a survey first to see what impact these reptiles could have on native flora???
What was and should have remained a lovely little opportunity to restock an area is rapidly turning into a farce
It is only becoming a farce because of too much self interest from bodies who in reality have little or nothing to do with the project but see the opportunity for government funds
When you are restocking an area with stock that is genetically identical to the ones still living there there are very few dangers if your stock is healthy

 

[Australis]

Why is that area being targeted for re-stocking?
Are the animals to be released related?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

We are mainly talking about reptiles here and I believe the success rate for reintroducing reptiles is much higher than other other species

Do you have examples to support this theory of yours? Where has it been done with consistent success? If the population of Carpets around Nelson Bay (not far from where I live) has been damaged by bushfires, if follows that the habitat has been significantly damaged as well. Why would anyone contemplate releasing snakes (or any animal) into damaged habitat? Pythons particularly are fecund animals, and will quickly reestablish naturally in an area after such disasters - the only constraints being suitable niches for individuals, and sufficient food.

Why would anyone put more Aussie GTPs into Iron Range or the McIlwraith Range? Is there a population decline there? I don't think so. I haven't heard of decreasing abundance - it's a cryptic species which is probably in stable numbers. The reasons there are so many available in Indonesia is that felling of forests in Indonesian territories exposes the animals, and collectors are paid a pittance.

Jamie

 

[DanN]

Hi Longqi,

May I ask which area of Papua you were hoping to re-stock with green pythons and why?

While your intentions are noble, do you actually have any data to back up why you would do this?
I presume it is because of illegal collection. If so, this mainly occurs around the major centres where habitat is of questionable value anyway. Further, why would you waste your time restocking an area when they have the potential to just be taken again? Wouldn't it be smarter to address the problem first?

Again, I'm not having a personal attack, but I see no reason why the Indonesian government would ever support such an idea? To be honest it is one of the strangest things I have heard in a long time. Do you have anymore details?

Feel free to PM.

Dan

 

[longqi]

There are three localities where chondros were once reasonably plentiful and are now rarely sighted [biak is one and is virtually a lost cause]
The reason for restocking is a simple one
99% of captive bred reptiles are mixed and matched to enhance colour etc etc so definite local chondros will become rarer and rarer in the future
I had the good fortune to get involved a few years ago with a BKSDA official who was very concerned about these three areas
Only one part of one area was deemed suitable for restocking because of its isolation

He had already arranged for 6 pairs to be taken from the wild
But they had a lot of problems breeding them
I showed them a few things and moved the hatchery to a better location

The problem with over collection is only caused by us westerners who will pay a villager a months wages for a nice chondro
Getting the villagers alongside by teaching them that taking tours to see wild chondros could be much more lucrative is also part of the deal......
Sorong is one place where a lot of work is being done to encourage this
Ecotourism will take off here over the next few years
Wouldnt you like to a wild chondro just hanging around?
So this is addressing both the problem of over collecting and money

BKSDA although notionally a part of the government are vastly underfunded and chose an existing site in the mountains behind Jakarta where the evenings in rainy season were simply too cold and most of them developed RI
I fixed that with heaters but showed them that the location was not the best as natural breeding can be very successful here in the right place
The cost of setting up a decent breeding system is fairly minimal in this climate so I bore that so long as the system was located in an area suitable for breeding them
So basically the Government supported it because it was costing them nothing except 6 pairs of chondros they could not breed successfully and I was paying for the rest
[My costs were not great at any stage of this by Western standards]
This project can definitely be successful but now that it is looking good everybody wants in on it at the expense of the chondros [and me as now they expect me to carry a lot more expenses for surveys etc]
Right now I have nearly 100 hatchies/yearlings with more hatchies to come and 24 two to three year olds ready to go
The valley is still pristine and isolated but how it will be after too many go there to investigate this remains to be seen
It was supposed to be a nice quiet restocking program and was working well until others got involved

Back on topic I will not support wild collections as I have seen the damage caused too often
I do totally support relocation programs such as those carried out by some very dedicated reptile lovers in Kalimantan
who frequently move very large retics to safety
Peter

 

[GeckoJosh]

Your wrong about the Albino Darwin, it was borrowed and returned, not bred and released.

Is this the Darwin being referred to?
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