Wires regurge!

[waruikazi]

Doesn't need to be very deep. I've only done it twice specifically because the snake was dehydrated, one was a small whip that i dumped into water an inch deep which was several times the depth of its body. The other was a death adder i put into a bin and filled to its jaw line.

If the snake was going to be left soaking for a long period of time i would put a rock in with it so if it needed to rest its head above the water line it could. I would usually leave them in for 24 hours if i thought the snake had been poisoned but just with drinking i removed those two snakes when it appeared they had finished.

I'm rambling a bit so here's a pic of what i would normally do. Obviously the bigger the snake the bigger the enclosure lol.

 

[licky]

Top find there imported_Varanus. Great to see what they are naturally feasting on, but to bad it was a regurge.
How Do you think it came to eat 3 consecutive blueys? They seem to be eaten around the same time period.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Waruikazi: That's what I figured you ment, so that's similar to the set up we used (except the Green Plastic Garbage Bin). We kept him in for a couple of hours (he took a while to stop trying to escape (and calm down a little) and then I observed him for another hour and didn't notice any drinking, I think he's too upset still! Worth a try anyway, but I might try the Saline injections again, at least while we're still giving him the course of Baytril (only another three days to go)! After that, I don't have to hassel him on a daily basis. I'm thinking release may be the go ASAP?

licky: All the Bluies were perfectly preserved, all the same size (age?) and looked fairly recent, so I'm guessing he ate one after the other from the same newely born litter; which poses an interesting question, did he envenomate one after another and then go back and consume them , or, did he bite and consume one , then hunt down another? Any suggestions/ guesses??


Cheers,

I.V.

 

[waruikazi]

IV what is making you worried that it is so dehydrated that it needs daily saline injections? I think that is going a bit extreme. I've seen even the most stressed snakes (straight after capture) drink when soaked if they needed it. But they don't need to drink very often and not very much either so it may just be not thirsty.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Since it came into my care, I've noticed an overall loosening of it's skin; it looks "baggy" and, when you pinch the skin (as the Baytril has to be administered sub-cutaniously (check spelling)), it stays "pinched" for a few seconds afterwards. What mainly concerned me though was the vet mentioned the other day that an open wound involving muscle damage, such as this snake has, can increase the chances of dehydration, as the protective, impervious skin layer has been breached. But, I guess this has to be weighed up against the fact that all this daily handling is causing considerable stress (Catch 22). The first day we got him, he was out and about basking and exploring his surrounds after an hour or so (and may even have begun drinking by now had he been left alone) and also stopped trying to escape, but, with the regular, daily handling, he just hides all the time!

 

[waruikazi]

The baggy skin sounds more like stress to me than dehydration esp if you have soaked it. Is it only when you pinch it or can you see folds in the skin all the time? If the latter i wouldn't be holding out much hope for its survival. Whenever i have been caring for a snake that got to the baggy skin stage its death would follow pretty quickly.

Don't take my word as gospel though, would be a good idea to hit up someone like Baz to get a more experienced opinion.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Thanks mate, that's a handy insight as I had no idea dehydration could be a symptom of stress; it wouldn't suprise me in this case! To answer your question, it's only when we pinch it for the injection, though he has lost some bulk as you can tell in the last pic in this post of the head shot. He's grown noticably more defensive and nervous over the last few days, prefering to stand his ground rather than flee and today we noticed his eyes are becoming cloudy, which would go some way to explaining his change in attitude. Perhaps that's a good sign, the fact that he appears to be entering a shedding phase even though he's being handled daily?

I'll PM Bazz anyway for an opinion. All a bit of a steep learning curve for me as this is the first elapid (or snake) I've ever had any rehab concerns with.

Thanks again,

I.V.

 

[cement]

Hi mate, is the wound the reason you are giving antibiotics? Unless it was caused by a cat, it looks quite superficial from the photos. You said it was cruising around just fine until you started handling it (for the needles) I assume. I've had many snakes with worse looking wounds heal perfectly by themselves, without the need for anti biotics. Betadine, or even manuka honey once or twice and then left alone.

The stress of handling and constant surveillence is more of a worry in this case I feel.
Good luck with it though, its great to get them back in the bush.
Don't bother to try feeding it, at least until its acting more relaxed.
If its moving around, drinking and trying to escape, then its probably due for release once the wound has scabbed over.
cheers

 

[waruikazi]

Thanks mate, that's a handy insight as I had no idea dehydration could be a symptom of stress; it wouldn't suprise me in this case! To answer your question, it's only when we pinch it for the injection, though he has lost some bulk as you can tell in the last pic in this post of the head shot. He's grown noticably more defensive and nervous over the last few days, prefering to stand his ground rather than flee and today we noticed his eyes are becoming cloudy, which would go some way to explaining his change in attitude. Perhaps that's a good sign, the fact that he appears to be entering a shedding phase even though he's being handled daily?

I'll PM Bazz anyway for an opinion. All a bit of a steep learning curve for me as this is the first elapid (or snake) I've ever had any rehab concerns with.

Thanks again,

I.V.

That kind of bagginess just sounds like he is going into shed so i wouldn't worry too much. But when a snake is about to die of stress the first thing you will notice are lateral folds of skin. Once that has happened it is unlikely that you will be able to save it. I used to work under a collection permit and learnt this the hard way, even with healthy animals it could happen. It is a very good argument for minimal treatment and intervention. Atleast if it dies in the wild it will go back into the food chain.

 

[imported_Varanus]

I've seen the "lateral" skin folds you mention appearing on animals we used during our WIRES relocation course (usually appearing mid way between the belly scales and spine region), as ,unfortunately, individual animals were capture and recaptured over and over again throughout the day with a ground temperature recorded at 47C (Dubbo in November)! Does that mean that many of these snakes die unnecessarily in the name of training? There's another good argument for "minimal treatment and intervention" ! Anyway, it's not apparent on this animal and, with two days of treatment to go, hopefully a successful outcome is just around the corner.

Cement: Yes, as the wound has exposed muscle, it was deemed necessary to treat the animal with a course of antibiotics, but I'm now wondering if it wouldn't simple have been better to have released immediately and let nature take it's course, due to, as you say, the handling stress and all that entails. At least he wouldn't have regurged his last meal, anyway. I'm still hoping good intentions will have a good outcome, but this experience will certainly lead me to re consider next time.


Cheers,

I.V

 

[waruikazi]

Experience tells me that yes those training snakes are more likely to die. I'm not sure how they end up going after they have been released with those skin folds for obvious reasons, they may recover upon being returned to the wild but then again they may not.

 

[imported_Varanus]

That's a bit depressing. Kind of puts you off wanting to participate in another WIRES course. Surely they should have in place some protocol for the survival/ successful release of these snakes: it's a bit hypocritical otherwise!

 

[redbellybite]

Well no use training with RUBBER SNAKES now ....hope you get a good outcome with him... IV ...

 

[imported_Varanus]

Thanks Mizz Bite,

LOL.... though the rubber ones would have less chance of dehydrating! I guess there's no shortage of privately run training organisations as an alternative.

 

[waruikazi]

That's a bit depressing. Kind of puts you off wanting to participate in another WIRES course. Surely they should have in place some protocol for the survival/ successful release of these snakes: it's a bit hypocritical otherwise!

I think it is a justified loss. That is if they do end up dieing. Like i said, who knows what happens once they are released they may recover.

 

[imported_Varanus]

A quick update,

This is the wound following 10 days of captivity, 7 days of Baytril and 3 days of Saline. It's off to the vet thursday for a final assessment!

Any before/ after opinions? Personally, I think it looked better pre- treatment and would have been better off if either it had been released immediately or left in peace to recouperate for a few days prior to release.

Many thanks to those who have followed the thread and offered helpful/ insightful opinions.

Cheers,

I.V.

P.S: Sorry, only one pic as I am trying to keep stress levels to a minimum.

 

[redbellybite]

mmmmm sometimes you are better applying a dry powder form of anti biotic ...I use Terramycin Pinkeye Powder its a broad spectrem works well on wounds ,have used it on both lizard and snake wounds and have healed beautifully ....anyway best of luck , has it also a tail injury or is that just the pic ?

 

[cement]

A quick update,

Any before/ after opinions? Personally, I think it looked better pre- treatment and would have been better off if either it had been released immediately or left in peace to recouperate for a few days prior to release.

Yeah i agree.It may just be the photos but a couple of hits with spray on betadine would probably be all i would do. Then just keep comfortable, checking it every 3rd or 4th day. As soon as it starts to scab back it goes in the bush.

Is the wound dry? Or is flesh being eaten away giving it that wet look?

 

[imported_Varanus]

A dry powder once or twice sounds like a better alternative (I might suggest it to our vet) and the tail is fine, no injury. The vet suggested it might be a good idea to cover the wound with vaseline to prevent it drying out..... though it now appears "gangrenous" to me and, if it's no longer pink in colour (like originally) doesn't that mean the areas lost blood flow?

 

[cris]

Experience tells me that yes those training snakes are more likely to die. I'm not sure how they end up going after they have been released with those skin folds for obvious reasons, they may recover upon being returned to the wild but then again they may not.

Dont knock him he has a good chance of releasing an animal that will kill far more herps than the single life he may save (maybe even a human)