Breeding Debate

[Red-Ink]

Jamie
No one is questioning the knowledge and after care support breeders provide in fact that's what makes you a good breeder and therefore will be a reputable one.. The problem seems to be is the assumption put into new/first time breeders that they wont look after the welfare or do not have the knowledge to do so... How are they meant to acquire that knowledge if we are discouraging them from breeding?
You're telling me it's a subjective rhetoric of "it's my right to do whatever I want, whenever I want to..."
Is,... "breeding's hard, you don't know what your in for... you shouldn't do it..." not a subjective rhetoric from breeders as well... If they found it that hard why repeat the process year in year out?
The flood of the market on reptiles seems to be at the core of these debates, arguments such as cheap reptiles are disposable reptiles to an extent I'm sure that happens, but waht also happens on the other side of the coin is somebody having a reptile for a value they can afford adding to the numbers of reptile keepers. Is that not our main weapon in the fight against bureaucracy? How are we going to grow the hobby if there are no reptiles out there.... It's not just new/first time breeders that flood the market.... I can understand why newbs breed their reptiles , they've never done it before and again want to experience it.. legitimate don't you think? So in an already flooded market with the knowledge of breeders that newbies lack in it's "effects" in the hobby, ask yourself why would they breed that year as well if they know there's going to be a flood of reptiles?

Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?

 

[waruikazi]

Gee, 12 hours away from the computer and the old chips-on-the-shoulders are really showing themselves!

Red-Ink & Khagan, you both clearly have issues with objectivity. Neither of you have put forth any reasonable arguments in favour of a 'breeding free-for-all' other than some silly notion that 'experienced' breeders don't want newcomers encroaching on their turf, and 'it's my right to do whatever I want, whenever I want to...' Both of those arguments are entirely subjective, and reflect a 'last resort response' to the serious questions posed here. The 'I'll ********* do what I like, just try and stop me...' isn't really appropriate where live animals are concerned. We already have reptile 'welfare' at the forefront of bureaucratic scrutiny of our hobby here in NSW, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on and there are thousands of unwanted breli & Coastals being poorly maintained, starved or released.

I know many breeders who sell true pairs of animals, to relative newcomers who display the attributes of future responsible breeders themselves, and are very happy to offer advice on breeding down the track... In fact I don't know any reputable breeder who would refuse to do this. I'm sure Michael, who cops a bit of flak here because of his stance on 'free-for-all' breeding (like me), has sold true pairs of animals to people he knows are proposing to breed them later, and I would be very surprised if he hung up on his clients of 3-4 years earlier when they want advice. He has published heaps of info on GTP husbandry, all of it useful and lots of it relating to breeding.

Jealousy is one of the biggest problems facing herp keepers as a community, it fractures and destroys any objectivity in debates like this.

I don't know one 'successful' breeder who doesn't enjoy sharing the knowledge they have accumulated over the years. If yours is the opposite experience, you're obviously living in a different world than mine, and maybe you should get out more...

Jamie

I think jealousy is the biggest problem in our hobby. It is seriously affecting how we move forward and the availability of new species. I know more than one case where it has caused or causing animals to be blocked from entering our hobby.

On a different note, Khagan and red-ink. You are both very vocal on your self proclaimed right to breed, and i suppose you are not wrong. Breeding is your perogative. However neither of you have given an argument that adresses the rights of the animal, what are you going to do when you breed your coastals/macs/bredli and you can't move them on? And what ground breaking experience do you expect to achieve from breeding them? You both keep spouting that it is how you get experienced. It's not, any moron with a M/F pair of most of the common snakes can produce a clutch.

Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?

You will end up doing that to yourself. I saw what was happening to the market and i was worried for the welfare of my progeny, so i quit breeding.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks for that thoughtful response RI.

Firstly, I know some of the biggest breeders in NSW (the nice ones that is!) and they all tell me that they have cut way back on species they can't move. JW and Snake Ranch has reduced some species, Jungles and RSPs to name a couple, because they are hard to move at the moment - at a price which reflects the costs borne in hatching and raising them to a saleable size. This is the endless debate about supply and demand controlling price... but at the end of the day, if the prices you can charge don't reflect what it costs you in energy and time (especially time), then those with the knowledge and skills will move on to something else. This leaves newcomers exposed to purchasing from one-trick ponies, and the complications that causes. One year I had a clutch of 22 GTPs, 18 of them took me over four months to become established feeders (some clutches are great with GTPs, some are bloody pains...). I never took account of the hours I spent working with them, but I did 2-3 hours almost every night. I breed very few snakes, so it's a labour of love for me (most of the time!), but if you multiply that input by 10 or 20 for a bigger breeder, the costs in time are enormous. This is fun for a first up breeder with one clutch...

I can absolutely understand why newish keepers want to breed their animals, it's a fantastic experience and worth doing just for that alone, but there are downsides which can't be ignored, such as the oversupply of cheaper animals on the market. If you read any of the posts I've made on a few threads relating to this topic, I've always suggested to aspiring breeders that they target their species, and never suggested that they don't breed anything. This has often been distorted by other contributors to mean that I'm trying to protect my own interests, and is a pervasive myth about me and others, that colours the opinions of a number of members here. I've never said breeding's hard to aspiring breeders, I do point out what they're in for, but most who are serious about it accept the challenge, and if that's the case, I'm very happy to work with them to assist their reaching their goal.

I've been keeping reptiles for over 50 years, WAY before they had any commercial value, or they were 'commodified', so my interest in them runs far deeper than any commercial gain I may make from them (ask my wife about costs vs profit - you'll get an eye-opening response!), and I've seen herp keeping change beyond recognition in the past 20 years especially.

It's probably my age (grumpy old man!) and experience which gives me an overview that differs from that of newcomers to the hobby/business. But I can see a bigger picture at this point in time - the herp community is an unfocused and undisciplined mob, state legislations are a shambles of individual fiefdoms across the country, the laws we operate under now bear no relation to the current landscape because they were drafted 40 years ago and so much has changed... all the while 10s of thousands of animals are coming onto the market every year, many of which face a very uncertain future...

So much to do... so little time!

J

 

[Red-Ink]

On a different note, Khagan and red-ink. You are both very vocal on your self proclaimed right to breed, and i suppose you are not wrong. Breeding is your perogative. However neither of you have given an argument that adresses the rights of the animal, what are you going to do when you breed your coastals/macs/bredli and you can't move them on? And what ground breaking experience do you expect to achieve from breeding them? You both keep spouting that it is how you get experienced. It's not, any moron with a M/F pair of most of the common snakes can produce a clutch.


You will end up doing that to yourself. I saw what was happening to the market and i was worried for the welfare of my progeny, so i quit breeding.

As far as addressing the rights of the animals, that would be in accordance to each persons moral standards... That's something nobody can control. Some people are prepared to take on all left over progeny some people simply can not nor do they care. That's an argument that's based on ethics... I can only speak for myself personally... I'm well prepared to take on the responsibility of hatchlings as thanks to forums and the knowledge passed on by breeders before me I know what I'm in for. I currently have bred a species of gecko that I have never bred before... I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.

Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process

I have no doubt I will end up not breeding... In fact I kept reptiles for over a decade before even trying.

 

[Waterrat]

Instead of discouraging new breeders from seeking the knowledge through breeding maybe we should flip the coin and discourage people who have already gone through it from doing it again....?

Those established breeders who breed every year are most probably working on improving certain traits, creating morphs, etc. because that's what everybody wants. I don't hear those breeders complaining about not being able to move their animals, it's the new breeders, breeding common stuff that are finding it hard.
I mentioned URS, SxR and SR and Red-Ink replied that they are professionals, they have to make money. Is my breeding program not costing me anything? The downside of the ever-falling prices is, it will take the professionals down the gurgle too. But I guess, that the bigger picture some people here don't see.

I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.

I hope you're going to publish and share you observations and newly acquired knowledge with the whole herp community. Please let us know when it comes hot off the press.

 

[hugsta]

Hey Daz, you're forgetting our old mate up in Cairns (well he's moved now). He sold me 3 male bredli as a trio and a female jungle that turned out to be his worst feeding male. Shame you cant publicly mention names, but enough people know already

Ah yes, I did forget about that scumbag, but, he didn't last very long once everyone was onto his way of lying and ripping people off. He had to underground as he became well hated in this industry.

Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process

Pretty sure there is no real reason to call any newcommers or first time breeders morons.......

I think you are all missing one main point. The reason you are wanting to breed in the first place. Most of the keepers that have been around for a long time got into this hobby purely for their passion of keeping reptiles. Breeding was a secondary thought and generally, making money was not in the equasion. However, times have changed and now people seem to be less content with getting one snake, it is more along the lines of, geez, if I get a pair and breed them I can make lots of money. Which is, IMO, a decision based not on the enjoyment of keeping reptiles, but based on making money, with the side enjoyment of having reptiles. Very little thought is put into the whole scenario of how do I care for the neonates, how much time is involved in getting them to feed, how do I move excess stock, can I afford to buy all the equipment to look after them, can I get a readily available supply of food etc etc etc. I am all for newbs learning about breeding and the ups and downs of it, it is a great experience that I enjoy every year. the countless hours at night just checking to see if there have been succussful matings or not. I check animals in my reptile room more times a day then I care to count, just because I love to see what they are doing or if they need cleaning etc....

I also agree with rams, when animals become too cheap, they become disposable. You can see this easily with fish, one dies, they just go buy more and don't care. However, those with fish worth thousands tend to make sure their tanks, water quality etc etc is spot on and take much greater care of their prized animals.

 

[Red-Ink]

I mentioned URS, SxR and SR and Red-Ink replied that they are professionals, they have to make money. Is my breeding program not costing me anything? The downside of the ever-falling prices is, it will take the professionals down the gurgle too. But I guess, that the bigger picture some people here don't see.

Wasn't me Michael... Please re-read the thread, I have the utmost admiration for these people and I myself am guilty of wanting their animals....

Let's not forget who slung the first stone here... I expressed my opinion and how did you put it... commit "verbal diarrhea"


I understand that we all have cost in our breeding programs and some of this cost must be re-covered... Yet do you not keep your adult specimens in natural conditions? Is there a high cost for the sun over there? For the price of greens how much of that covers the running cost how much of it is profit (nothing wrong with profit, heck I want some of it)... Just don't pretend were not making it. People on forums are not mathematically inept and could not understand a simple cost sheet... Say 10 hatchlings at 2K each... what's the left over from the 20K after we take out running cost? All initial outlays for breeding stock, enclosures, incubators etc..etc.. would have been recovered after the first two years (if not the first) of breeding.

I have no desire for fame or noteriety as far as my observations go so there's no need to write a paper about it... I don't need to flex or stroke my ego about that. They may or may not be of any value to the herp community I'm pretty sure I'm not observing anything new as I'm going by tried and true methods but I find them valuable for my own learning process as I have never done it before.

Newbies buying from the professionals with well established lines/traits/morphs will continue that and improve it even if the big professionals disappear (self preservation here isn't it) due to running cost in a flooded market if that's what your concerned about in the hobby... Big enough picture? Just think about the lines you sell now will be contributing to the future lines of improved traits in GTPs in the future (though may not be through your hands but in the hands of a once newbie).

Pretty sure there is no real reason to call any newcommers or first time breeders morons.......

Sorry mate going by the term used in Gordo's post....I, by no means imply anybody is a moron.

"It's not any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch"

 

[Waterrat]

I have no desire for fame or noteriety as far as my observations go so there's no need to write a paper about it... I don't need to flex or stroke my ego about that. [/I]

So, that's why you think people publish papers, articles and books? I pity you.

 

[hugsta]

Sorry mate going by the term used in Gordo's post....I, by no means imply anybody is a moron.

"It's not any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch"

Not a problem. It is just that in threads like this, a heated or heavily debated topic can all turn to crraapp quite rapidly when people start becoming derogatory. I am sure most took no offence to it anyway.
I must have missed Gordo's comment, sorry about that.

 

[Waterrat]

Gordo didn't say that newbies are morons, he said "any moron can ....." that could include you, me and everybody else.

 

[Red-Ink]

So, that's why you think people publish papers, articles and books? I pity you.

Thanks Michael... glad somebody takes pity on me.. Who else do you take pity on by the way from your high chair out of curiousity.... just me?

 

[Waterrat]

You're not making much sense, so I am out of here.

ciao

 

[saximus]

If you read any of the posts I've made on a few threads relating to this topic, I've always suggested to aspiring breeders that they target their species, and never suggested that they don't breed anything. This has often been distorted by other contributors to mean that I'm trying to protect my own interests, and is a pervasive myth about me and others, that colours the opinions of a number of members here. I've never said breeding's hard to aspiring breeders, I do point out what they're in for, but most who are serious about it accept the challenge, and if that's the case, I'm very happy to work with them to assist their reaching their goal.

I've been keeping reptiles for over 50 years

:shock: I had no idea you were that old Jamie. I pictured a 40 year old at the oldest on the other side of my computer screen.
I 'm ashamed to say I was one of the ones who fell into the category of thinking the experienced people like you and most of the guys on this thread are out to protect your own interests. Reading this thread I was obviously wrong and won't be falling into that way of thinking so easily in the future.

I think there is a common thread here that almost everyone can agree on.

• Breeding purely for money just doesn't happen
• New breeders should do their homework and understand the risks/rewards involved in what they are planning and make an educated decision
• There are definitely a lot of animals (too many?) around now that are bred and can't be offloaded every year
• "Reputable" and "experienced" are two different things

Everything else to me just seems like personal opinion and will never be agreed on no matter how long this argument/debate goes for

 

[Red-Ink]

You're not making much sense, so I am out of here.

ciao

Bye... and thanks for playing...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I had no idea you were that old Jamie. I pictured a 40 year old at the oldest on the other side of my computer screen.

Lol! I can't help it if I look so young...

J

 

[Kyro]

What will happen to the hobby if the reptiles that are generally affordable don't get bred anymore? Most people that are new to the hobby start out with these species because they are easy to get, affordable & easy to care for. If the only animals available are way out of their price range then won't they just go buy a $20 corn snake instead? How can that be a good thing for the industry?
No nasty replies, i'm genuinely interested in what people think would happen if the hobby goes this way.

 

[waruikazi]

As far as addressing the rights of the animals, that would be in accordance to each persons moral standards... That's something nobody can control. Some people are prepared to take on all left over progeny some people simply can not nor do they care. That's an argument that's based on ethics... I can only speak for myself personally... I'm well prepared to take on the responsibility of hatchlings as thanks to forums and the knowledge passed on by breeders before me I know what I'm in for. I currently have bred a species of gecko that I have never bred before... I haven't rushed out too sell them at two weeks of age and currently still have all the hatchlings as the so called "experience" is still new and I'm currently still observing them. Again not everybody will do that.

Any moron with a M/F pair of the most common snakes can produce a clutch but if that moron has never done it before then it would still be an experience for so called moron... To experienced breeders it's just another clutch of macs.. to the new moron it's WOW i've just hatched my first clutch of macs.... Everybody forgotten that feeling they got when they hatched their first clutch??? The amount of knowledge they gained from it, from cooling to incubation to setting up the hatchling racks to getting them to start feeding and down to the disappointment of knowing their having a hard time moving them on... all part of the learning process

I have no doubt I will end up not breeding... In fact I kept reptiles for over a decade before even trying.

This is the thing that most newbs don't understand, most justify there position on wanting to breed by saying 'I want to learn through the experience'. There is not much to be gained from breeding the common species.

And i would like everyone to take not that i have never said anybody shouldn't be breeding their animals.

 

[Syn2554]

I will breed one day, but while in high school, I will NEVER find the time. After all, the welfare of up to 30 snakes is what comes first.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The same thing happens with all commodities - when they become scarcer, the price goes up because of supply & demand, they become more 'worthwhile' to breed so more people breed them... they become more readily available, so the price goes down again. It's a cycle, same with birds, dogs, anything really.

J

 

[fugawi]

Let me try to objectively summarise the (for the sake of argument I'll call them Professional/pro Breeders) Pro breeders arguments.

Noobs shouldn't breed because;
a;They are in it for the wrong reasons.
b;They are only in it for the money.
c;They don't have the experience.
d;They won't get any experience anyway, even with the common breeds.
e;They are flooding the market.
f;They will sell only sick, unhealthy, badly bred animals.
g;They will destroy the hobby.
h;They ask stupid questions.

Did I miss any? Conclusion.......If we allow noobs to breed anything, they will destroy the world as we know it. Therefore it is best to leave all reptile breeding to the professional breeders.

Is it just me or do these arguments just look ridiculous when put together.