Help! Need to find out what this substrate is - Vermiculite ?

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Oh phew! Okay that's good. It has been removed now.


It just shows that it pays to research every bit of information that you are told before making a change.


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Yeah that is very true. I just assumed because it was being sold at a reptile expo that surely it would be safe. My mistake. Obviously some people will sell anything to make a quick buck.


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They also sell heat rocks which a lot of keepers including myself consider unsafe.


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Yeah that is very true. I just assumed because it was being sold at a reptile expo that surely it would be safe. My mistake. Obviously some people will sell anything to make a quick buck.


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As I said, it is widely used as a incubation medium. That is why it is sold at reptile expos.
 
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Yeah that's true but also widely known.
They weren't advertising what the substrate was made of. The were just selling it saying how amazing it was. I should have asked what it contained. Once again my mistake. Just assumed a reptile retailer wouldn't sell something so hazardous as a substrate. Will know better next time.


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No i did not. It was pushed onto me as 'an amazing substrate, that retains moisture well and decreases the smell of urine'. I was approached about it and given a big sales pitch about how great it is as a substrate for reptiles.


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Either way it is sold at expos for that reason and I have never heard of anyone using it or selling it as substrate. It is a shame that someone would approach you and try to sell it as such.
 
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As I said, it is widely used as a incubation medium. That is why it is sold at reptile expos.

They were not selling it solely for that purpose! It was pushed onto me as a substrate for my snakes! That is why I am annoyed. If I had just bought it and not asked what it was for it would be my fault however they approached me!


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Yeah it sucks. Can't believe anything anyone says nowadays. :(
 



Either way it is sold at expos for that reason and I have never heard of anyone using it or selling it as substrate. It is a shame that someone would approach you and try to sell it as such.




I know. Very disappointing. Just glad I realised as soon as I did so it wasn't in with my snakes for long enough to do damage.


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It is not really that hazardous. It will cause mild irritations but in my opinion not worth the risk. It probably does everything else the seller said and they may not have come across or realised the problems yet. I really don't think there would be any bad intentions just someone who thought they had a great idea worth sharing.


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Yeah I suppose but as a seller and reptile retailer it is their responsibility to find out the risks before they sell it to others.


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Yeah I suppose but as a seller and reptile retailer it is their responsibility to find out the risks before they sell it to others.

Was it being sold for use as a substrate or for use in incubation?
 
As a substrate. As i have said, I was approached about it and told it was a substrate and that it reduces the smell of urine.


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Hi all,
One of my few posts on this forum but I feel I need to comment on this thread to correct some of the information being presented.

HayleyChuck93 already knows me feelings towards the use of vermiculite as a substrate as we have already had a "discussion" on a Facebook page that she posed the same question. Unfortunately she deleted the post and so no-one else can see my comments...

As a matter of transparency I do not endorse the company that is producing vermiculite nor have I received any financial gain from them for the following comments. I was approached by them to get my opinion on their product and its suitability for the use of it as a substrate for reptiles. I have been provided with a quantity of vermiculite substrate to trial for my own animals as I have now been doing for several weeks. As with any products that I am asked about I do extensive research into the safety, manufacture etc. before I make any comment.

In short I believe that in my experience so far and with the information that I have been provided vermiculite is actually a very good, very safe substrate!

To correct some of the information posted:

1. Vermiculite is not toxic if ingested. In fact it has been used in the veterinary and agricultural industries for years. It is used a carrier for medicinal applications and is fed to livestock. There are no reported toxicities in those species. While there is no data for reptiles species given the simplicity of their gut anatomy compared to that of cows, sheep etc. I would be more than comfortable suggesting it is safe in reptiles. Basically if a cow's stomach cannot break it down than a snake's is unlikely to!

2. Vermiculite does not swell with heat once it has been initially heat treated. Vermiculite is a mineral substance that is a by-product of the mining industry such as copper mining. When it comes out of the ground if is in flakes much like "fish food" flakes. It is heated and expands to its size that we see it being sold as. The heating process requires temperatures in the range of 600 degrees I believe ie. a lot hotter than it will ever get in a reptile enclosure!

3. Asbestos... In the 1970s and 1980's some vermiculite that was mined by the 3M company in the USA contained asbestos and was sold to US customers. The product mined here in Australia is certified asbestos-free and the mine site(s) are tested every 3 months. The testing is done by an independent company. I have been provided with the latest report that indicates it asbestos free. I also point out that vermiculite is used in many, many products (eg. vegetable and flower growing, grape and wine production, hydroponics, insulation, plasterboard, brake linings etc)... basically you are all being exposed to it pretty much all the time... given what we know about asbestos I am quite sure the companies that manufacture it and sell it will be making 100% sure there is no asbestos in it.

4. "Vermiculite sucks moisture out of the air".... I would dispute that. Why? Because I have tested it myself. This was one of the concerns I had regarding the product but I have now tested it in my own collection. I have measured the humidity using an Exo-Terra digital hygrometer in an enclosure housing a Central Bearded Dragon that was housed on Breeders Choice Cat litter. The temperature at the location I measured it was 28 degrees. The humidity read 41%. I replaced the cat litter with newspaper and did the same measurement several hours later. The humidity read... 41%. I then replaced the newspaper with vermiculite substrate taken directly from an unopened bag and measured the humidity again several hours later. It was reading.... 40%! That is a 1% drop in humdity. Just to be sure I left it overnight and check again. It was still sitting at 40%. The humidity in the room during the whole testing ranged from 44-46% humidity. It would appear on this small test basis that vermiculite does not remove water from the air.

Some other comments and observations I have noted while using/testing the product:
1. It is not messy at all. Once in the enclosure the product actually packs down quite tightly and the dragons I have had on it can walk around on it with no issues.
2. The product I have been supplied and that will be/is commercially available is of a smaller grade than that in the photos posted.
3. Any faecal/urate material deposited on it gets covered in the vermiculite and dried out quite quickly. It is then easily picked up and removed during spot cleaning.
4. I have noticed less smell in the enclosures.
5. It is not dusty. All particles under 2.5mm are removed in the manufacturing process. When pouring it out of the bags there is noticeably no dust.
6. Given its insulative properties it seems ideal for keeping heat in an enclosure and it is less of a fire risk should a heat lamp etc fall onto the surface of it.
7. It can be disposed of easily onto the garden or in the household rubbish.
8. It is using a by-product of the mining industy.
9. It looks good!

The choice of what substrate to use is a personal one and is one that often causes MUCH debate!!!
I encourage anyone to always research PROPERLY and from APPROPRIATE sources when making any decisions that could potentially affect the health of their animals.

In nutshell though I have found vermiculite an excellent substrate and have no hesitation recommending it to my clients.

Regards,
Dr. Shane Simpson
Karingal Veterinary Hospital
 
Dr Simpson, do you happen to know if the vermiculite you are testing differs in any significant way from the vermiculite commonly available from garden stores etc that is usually used as an incubation medium?
 
Dr Simpson, do you happen to know if the vermiculite you are testing differs in any significant way from the vermiculite commonly available from garden stores etc that is usually used as an incubation medium?

It is the same product i.e. it is all vermiculite. The product I have been supplied though is a finer grade than what I have seen and used as an incubation medium and can be bought at garden stores. They "cut up" the flakes into smaller pieces before heating it. My concern with the larger pieces was that they would not compact down into a nice firm substrate and this is what the manufacturer felt too. I have not tested it myself though.
 
Very interesting [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]. I might give it a go in some of my enclosures.
 
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