A Challege !!!

[Waterrat]

Define a fortune?
Is 120k enough?
240k? 360k? How much profit needs to be made before you consider it to be making enough money to be considered debateable here?

Fortune is a very arbitrary figure. Personally, I don't know anyone (hoobyist that is) making 120K, 240K or 260K out of reptiles. Maybe there are some but I don't know them and I am certainly not one them (I wish I was).
When it comes to costs, consider this - some breeders buy and use $50.- thermostats in their incubators. I paid $450.- plus installation for each of mine. And that's just one item.

 

[solar 17]

Can of Worms

l seemed to have opened a can of worms here so l feel l have to correct a couple of points :firstly l don,t have a problem with anyone making a profit, personally l believe making a living out of your hobby would be the ultimate position in life ...if everybody was honest....., but my honest opinion, very very few make a living out of keeping pets of any sort and yes there are people / keepers that are going to have the one off good year or gain a new morph and have a few good years [good on-em] l take the view, they have bought something to our hobby....and like " waterrat" said what about all the years of trial and error and your time and like another guy said : he has to make 20 grand to break-even on expenses my own power bill is $1200-1500 a quarter and yes l am fortunate enough to work from home [6 days a week] and l am not whinging l just get frustrated with those in the hobby 5 mins who take every oppertuned moment to sledge .........."and then open up" when they ask a question and someone says .....do a bit of research....cheers solar 17 [Baden]

 

[Elapidae1]

My biggest dream in life is to make a heap of money from something I love. My biggest fear is for that passion to become just my job. If you manage to make a million from reptiles, and when you go into your reptile room you still have the same excitement and facination as when you started out in the hobby WELL DONE. If you walk in to your reptile room and sigh because of the days work ahead then that's a real shame.

 

[Octane]

To all the knockers out there who believe some breeders are in it just for the money and make big dollars out of breeding. I challenge you to work out a realistic business plan to set up and run your own big dollars reptile breeding venture. Include a variety of species and locale specific animals or morphs in your breeding business plan.

Then go to the website of any of the local investment companies/banks and use their online investment calculators.

Add up your full set up cost include (animals, additional animals for genetic diversity, enclosures, incubator, hatchling housing, food storage / feeder food / food breeding set-ups, heating, lighting and anything else needed to set-up) and use this as your initial investment amount figure for the calculator.

Then add up ongoing costs such as buying food or the maintaining of your feeder food colony, electricity, bedding/substrate, consumable items such as heat globes, vetinary/husbandry costs, maintenance of equipment, any other sundry costs, your labour cost including ongoing administration and running around (the realistic labour cost would be what someone would have to pay an adult were employed doing it for them).
Calculate this as a weekly or fortnightly amount then use this amount as an equivalent ongoing deposit into the previously mentioned investment calculator.

I think you will find reptile breeding would come in second place in the money making stakes everytime when the same amount of initial investment and ongoing cost is fully accounted for.

And this is pretty much proven as very few people are able to make enough money from breeding reptiles to make a full time living out of it.

Octane

 

[Waterrat]

My biggest dream in life is to make a heap of money from something I love. My biggest fear is for that passion to become just my job. If you manage to make a million from reptiles, and when you go into your reptile room you still have the same excitement and facination as when you started out in the hobby WELL DONE. If you walk in to your reptile room and sigh because of the days work ahead then that's a real shame.

Good point Steve. I would think that if you make a million from you reptiles, you would employ someone to dot he chores and you would indulge in some specialised project that will bring you another million the next year. That's how the big guns in US do it.
The thing I would find hard to come to grips with is the fact that your business will be producing a "product" (no good looking at as loving sakes and lizards), which you would have to indiscriminately sell to anyone prepared to buy it. Otherwise you next million may not eventuate. In my mind, that is the prime difference between reptile hobby and reptile business. By the way, I am not bias either way.

 

[chondrogreen]

Hypothetically,

Home built enclosure banks (approx $250 for materials to make 3x 4x2x2 enclosures) thats what it cost me
Microclimate B1 thermostat to run all 3 ($180) what I paid
3x heat panels (approx $500) I actually paid $110ea
Branches & substrate (a very generous $1000) seriously bahaha
Fodder for the year (a generous $500 for rodent food and bedding to breed your own) about right for a larger collection
Incubator (free fridge, $180 for a dimming stat & approx $100 in containers & heating) true I did this
Electricity (a very generous $350 a quarter) this would be right for more then just a pair lol
Snakes (lets just say hypothetically GTP at $1500ea) hehe

Average clutch of 20 eggs. = 30k from 1 pair.

Investment + yearly costs = $7110

Profit = $22,890

If you like you can double the costs above and there is still profit to make.
Now add all the other snakes in the collection & you get the gist of it. And only a short 3 years ago GTP were still selling for 5k ea (100k + a clutch)
That is 20k profit from just 1 female. Now tell me you can't possibly make money from breeding as a hobbyist. Not everyone is, but some deffinately are. I know because I do although it goes back in + into other hobbies.

 

[Elapidae1]

Well said Octane and then you would also have to consider there would be zero profit for at the very least 1 breeding season. Then it will be unlikely you have developed any business reputation and it will be difficult to sell your first clutches so you will be stuck maintaining them therefore accruing additional cost (keeping in mind you have been at it for a year now and still haven't made a profit let alone been able to pay yourself a weekly wage) which will leave you with two options sell at discounted price = lower profit margin or maintain hoping to sell at later date for higher price subtracting on going keeping costs = lower profit margins. Ahh what the hell I'll just employ some 10yo kids to run a lemonade stand out the front I'm sure that will be easier and possibly more profitable.

 

[Rox.n.Lix]

isn't it everyone's goal in life to make a living out of something they love doing?

like steve1 said, if you dont enjoy it, thats where the issues come in. if you're not loving it 100%, that might lead to cutting corners, and thats when the animals will suffer.

I would wholeheartedly congratulate anyone who is dedicated to something they love and they get to earn a living out of it.

its the rupert murdochs and donald trumps of this world that deserve those kinds of criticisms.

bottom line, if the money means that much that the quality and care of the animals is sacrificed, then that is when it is NOT cool.

 

[moosenoose]

I'm certainly not in it for the money (as I only have one breeding pair who I don't plan to breed ).....and I don't know of too many herpers who are making much money from breeding anything. You've got to go massive scale to get any cash, and then that has only increased the outlay and maintenance costs.

I suppose it's much like getting involved with racing cars...the only may to make a small fortune is to start off with a large one :lol:

 

[Elapidae1]

Hypothetically

Your home made incubator fails (power outage)
initial outlay plus ongoing until next season $10 000 give or take .
Below average clutch 10-$15000
plus an hourly rate for time invested, fuel, mobile phone, shipping, license fees.
profit= $0 over 2 years

 

[Chris1]

its not the people who make a heap of $ that bother me, they also spend a bucket load in getting the good quality critters and good equipment. (although solar i have to say im insanely jealous of some of ur snakes,.....)
its the ones that say i just got a bearded dragon, how do i look after it and how do i 'bread' it. (mostly cos they cant even spell breed, lol,..)

 

[gecko-mad]

its not the people who make a heap of $ that bother me, they also spend a bucket load in getting the good quality critters and good equipment. (although solar i have to say im insanely jealous of some of ur snakes,.....)
its the ones that say i just got a bearded dragon, how do i look after it and how do i 'bread' it. (mostly cos they cant even spell breed, lol,..)

Yep, they're the ones we should be worrying about!

 

[chondrogreen]

Hypothetically

Your home made incubator fails (power outage)
initial outlay plus ongoing until next season $10 000 give or take .
Below average clutch 10-$15000
plus an hourly rate for time invested, fuel, mobile phone, shipping, license fees.
profit= $0 over 2 years

Hypothetically,

Below level clutches & power outages dosn't just effect thos with an ex fridge incubator do they? haha. You could get a sterile male too, hell you could even get the same sex animals or worse yet a hybrid without knowing. You could also get ran over walking across the street or trampled by cattle while out herping but who is talking ifs, buts & maybes here? Even with what you say there is still a small profit to be made in the 2nd season if you miss the first season by accident (regarding this example). You can also hold back the offspring longer and sell as dearer yearlings to make up for any loss. $10 or $100,000 profit is profit regardless, and my point is that breeding can cover more then just your costs even if some people don't like to admit it.

BTW, The microclimate thermostat is a decent model so it would be no worse then any store bought over priced under engineered incubator IMO. Infact I think it would be safe to say that the majority of keepers use ex fridges as incubators but just to humour you incase of power outage I will have a generator on standby. So you can take another $1500 off the 20k profit if you like to pay for a backup generator lol. I will also put in writing "the potential to make profit" incase there is a problem

 

[Octane]

I don't have a problem if a breeder attempts to cover costs or makes a profit breeding. What is wrong with paying a breeder a reasonable amount for the privilege of owning a healthy animal or more for one that may have had four, five or more generations of selective breeding to achieve it's traits.

Like so many others damn you Baden, showing off that special red/orange bredli of yours!!! I want one too. Bet that if you had a waiting list for one like that written on a toilet roll you would get a red raw busted behind from wiping before you got to my name.

Cheers
Octane

 

[chondrogreen]

We may as well all agree to disagree.
Nobody is ever going to admit they profit from the hobby, because they would just be hammered.
Imagine the grief they will cop for the rest of their days here once people realize they are lining their pockets. The fact that the thread started out about anybody making money, then went to Baden not profitting then to hobbyists making a fortune? just shows that NOBODY has a grasp of what they think is and isn't acceptable in even their own terms LOL. Any profit whether little or big and whether spent elsewhere or put back into your collection IS MAKING MONEY.

 

[solar 17]

Problem ?????

Hypothetically,

Home built enclosure banks (approx $250 for materials to make 3x 4x2x2 enclosures) thats what it cost me
Microclimate B1 thermostat to run all 3 ($180) what I paid
3x heat panels (approx $500) I actually paid $110ea
Branches & substrate (a very generous $1000) seriously bahaha
Fodder for the year (a generous $500 for rodent food and bedding to breed your own) about right for a larger collection
Incubator (free fridge, $180 for a dimming stat & approx $100 in containers & heating) true I did this
Electricity (a very generous $350 a quarter) this would be right for more then just a pair lol
Snakes (lets just say hypothetically GTP at $1500ea) hehe

Average clutch of 20 eggs. = 30k from 1 pair.

Investment + yearly costs = $7110

Profit = $22,890

If you like you can double the costs above and there is still profit to make.
Now add all the other snakes in the collection & you get the gist of it. And only a short 3 years ago GTP were still selling for 5k ea (100k + a clutch)
That is 20k profit from just 1 female. Now tell me you can't possibly make money from breeding as a hobbyist. Not everyone is, but some deffinately are. I know because I do although it goes back in + into other hobbies.

Chondrogreen....l have spotted a small chinqk...in your calculations, what about the outlay costs of the parents most people [not all] would have outlayed $15-20,000 for those original parents to produce last year [at those prices, mmmmm....cheers solar 17 [Baden] ps.. and yes l know you still have them [hyperthetically]....but it has probably taken 3-4 years to get to that position, now that would have been a house deposit then and imagine the untaxed profit on that deal....

 

[Waterrat]

Hypothetically,

Home built enclosure banks (approx $250 for materials to make 3x 4x2x2 enclosures) thats what it cost me it cost me $500.- each and I made them myself. I have 11 of them plus hatchling facility.
Microclimate B1 thermostat to run all 3 ($180) what I paid Oil heater to heat up the gravid female's room $350.-
3x heat panels (approx $500) I actually paid $110ea
Branches & substrate (a very generous $1000) seriously bahaha The time spent cutting them / fuel? Ahhh, we do that for love, I forgot - cancel that one.
Fodder for the year (a generous $500 for rodent food and bedding to breed your own) about right for a larger collection More like 3K / year in my case.
Incubator (free fridge, $180 for a dimming stat & approx $100 in containers & heating) true I did this All up 2K (4 incubators).
Electricity (a very generous $350 a quarter) this would be right for more then just a pair lol You have got to be joking. N/a in my case.
Snakes (lets just say hypothetically GTP at $1500ea) hehe Hehehe, how wrong can you be? Would you start serious breeding program with $1500.- GTPs?

Average clutch of 20 eggs. = 30k from 1 pair. No, the average is not 20 eggs. If you have young females, they produce 12 - 17 eggs in their first litters.
Another thing is - you don't always sale everything you produce. If you had 3 females producing 20 eggs each, do you think you would sell them all in one year?
Investment + yearly costs = $7110

Profit = $22,890

If you like you can double the costs above and there is still profit to make.
Now add all the other snakes in the collection & you get the gist of it. And only a short 3 years ago GTP were still selling for 5k ea (100k + a clutch)
That is 20k profit from just 1 female. Now tell me you can't possibly make money from breeding as a hobbyist. Not everyone is, but some deffinately are. I know because I do although it goes back in + into other hobbies.

Mate, it's not a good idea to calculate other people's expenses / profits. It can fly into your face.

 

[Boney]

There are a lot of younger people on this forum and others ALWAYS taking swipes at people similar to myself who are making "big bucks" selling greens and other top end snakes well l could name you folks who continually say "they are only in it for the money" well come on show me someone who is making big money out of snakes / reptiles every year l spend a [deleted] load of money with a lot of suppliers for top of the range equipment and enclosures, my last bill with one supplier came to just over a $1000.00 on one order alone and then because l sell a couple of greens l am in it for the bucks...l do know of a couple of people who have in the past done ok but but those days are gone and in most cases people put out big dollars to do it.....well l say good on them no shame here but....those days have just about gone......l believe a lot of you who say "they are making big bucks people" are just green with envy and want to put minimal and get maximum out and sit on the internet hiding behind a screen throwing mud....well heres your chance.....cheers solar 17 [Baden]

Baden , there is nothing wrong with making big bucks out of anything . and big bucks are what kept alot of breeders in it , and if the big bucks wherent there i think they would scale back there operations . which seems to be happening now and now the market has crashed to some extent . the blokes that where making big bucks most likely have a keen interest in reptiles but the dollers where more then just a bonus .why hide that fact?

the market has really only crashed within the last 12 months and already seems like people are crying poor .

Baden , i dont know what numbers you where breeding and numbers of what type of python ,albinos ,greens , ect womas you where breeding . but even at last years prices . even if your total expences where $20,000 a year . for cages ,rodents thermos ect you should of done alright why hide the fact ? nothing wrong with what you are doing i think . at least your breeding your stuff and not sitting out the front of a aboriginal camp with a reptile book and a a boot full of flagens ..

 

[chondrogreen]

I am not calculating others profits.
I thought I made it clear thats what my costs were (except the GTP was hypothetical) I actually paid 5k ea for them and we know ya don't start with just 2 but in the same breath 100k clutches were the cost then not 30k clutches. So it evens itself out in the end. And before the argument goes haywire Baden was one of many members interested in buying a female from me not too long ago, so I am far from guesstimating here (even if it is hypothetical lol)

You mention higher costs such as 4 incubators, 11 cages etc but you forget to mention that that equals more gravid females and extra hatchies to sell. You can argue all you like but just because you apparently don't make money dosn't mean the rest of us don't. I am telling you right now I DO make profit and I have no qualms in admitting this. All my money is put back into reptiles, fish, birds, fishing, hunting and soon mini poultry farming. I can sit here and say "nah I just covered costs, it all went back into my hobby" because it sort of does but the FACT is I made more money in the 12 month season then I spent in that season therefore I profitted (even if it did go back into everything I paid for that year + some)

 

[andyscott]

If someone has suggested that Baden is breeding just for profit they need their head read.
Take his Blackheadeds as an example, I know Baden waits until his females are around the 4 kilo mark before he breeds them, most breeders will breed BHPs at 3 kilo.
You dont wait an extra year to breed your animals if you see $$$ signs before the animals welfare.

There are a lot of breeders on this forum I have a huge amount of respect for and Baden is on top of the list, Ive heard a lot of stories about him taking the time to help people out.
Including issues that would save the person 100s of $$$s in vet bills.

With all that said, I have Axanthic line BHPs that are all over the 3 kilo mark.
Im taking a leaf out of Badens book and giving them an extra season before letting them breed. Even though Axanthic hatchlings were going for $3000 each this season just gone.
Id prefure to put my animals health in front of my hip pocket.
Which is sad for my 4 kilo Axanthic male, he will have to wait.
.
In my eyes, you keep and breed as many pythons as Baden does, with all the time and effort that goes into it, You deserve to get some cash back.