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junglepython2
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Don't forget most predators probably with the exception of birds don't have colour vision or if they do it is limited, so bright colours wouldn't necessarily make them stand out all that much more then drab colours.
Are we creating weaker animals through the hobby?
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hrafna
Well-Known Member
well send me the evidence and i will take more note of your way of thinking, i am not going to listen to some "i spoke with a man who has no name who knew a guy who had a dog, who bought said dog off of a guy who knew some pretty snakes in the wild" and take that as gospel. i know you like the last laugh so say what you want after this, at the end of the day it is all rather moot as there is no way anyone is going to spend the money and time to scientifically prove this out one way or another.
this is the type of info that is great for this type of conversation.
what then would be the basis for animals to adapt camoflage to suit their environment? from predators or prey?
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waruikazi
Legendary
I can only speculate because i have only been to qld once which was 16years ago but i have no doubt that an otherwise healthy snake with more or less pattern as you described would have just as high of a chance at surviving as any other. It is essentially still the same pattern and it is still the same colour.
But try this on for size. This was a wild snake.
hrafna
Well-Known Member
yeah a wild snake that has obviously been attacked! not exactly great evidence to prove your point! like i said, i am not denying that there are some amazing animals out there, but i bet those ones have more odds against them and from a population of say 1000 how many are your bright wonderful critters?
waruikazi
Legendary
I just looked over the paper and it doesn't show the pictures that i recalled it having. But it did show jungles and coastals living in the same habitat... so i think that says something. I think one of the pictures is published in Richard Shine's book 'AUstralian Snakes, a Natural History' it is s fully striped black and yellow jungle. So go figure.
I think one of the reasons we see people working so hard and long on their projects is because they are trying to refine their lines so they a) hold their colour longer and b) make the occurences of these patterns and colours more predictable.
How much time have you spent in the feild? Serious question... Are you arguing that that snakes is not alive and wild (it isn't anymore but that is another story)? That injury was from me pulling it out of a door frame.
So you are not denying that i am right? I'm getting a little lost here in your argument. It doesn't matter out of how many there are xxx amount that we think are brighter than others, the fact is that there are some and they do just fine in the wild. The fact that i have pictures like the one i just posted and the fact that we find living exotic carpets that are obvious escapees makes that point.
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hrafna
Well-Known Member
so really no solid evidence to prove your claim. i can just as easily take a pic of a captive animal, put it in natural settings and sell said photo to someone for their book.
waruikazi
Legendary
Are you serious? Where is the evidence for your claims that they don't survive in the wild? All you can point to is people line breeding for certain traits. And you are accusing me of making up evidence.
hrafna
Well-Known Member
and i am sure that is exactly why people line breed their animals.
waruikazi
Legendary
Here's some more evidence for you! Wild adult albino olive! Albino Olive Pythons and those carrying the gene
hrafna
Well-Known Member
no as i stated, it is my opinion. i am in no way stating this as fact like you are. as i also stated the only way we can prove any of this is by doing an actual scientific study. i am stating opinion and pointing out your flaws, you are trying to pass of heresay as fact!
waruikazi
Legendary
Here you go more evidence of wild types with brighter colours! Is white bright enough?!?!?! http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/albino-spotted-python-46498/page/6 last picture on that page!
hrafna
Well-Known Member
yep and did you not see my post about albinos in the wild? or do you have to google that too?
waruikazi
Legendary
FACT IS SUNSHINE that these snakes exist in the wild. Just because we see them as being something different doesn't mean the wild does!
hrafna
Well-Known Member
did your mother drop you on your head as a baby? or does your overwelming need to be right on everything make you so blind with rage that you are unable to read?
waruikazi
Legendary
Did i not just post one of my own pictures? Of a snake that i found? If i bothered to take more photos i could show you more.
I'll ask you again, how much feild experience do you have?
Well i'm stating FACTS and the flaws in your opinion! And i'm getting wild cause you are accusing me of making this up!
hrafna
Well-Known Member
when did you ask me in the first place? did you not see my reply to your photo? let me restate everything i have said so that even you can clearly understand it.
a. yes these animals do occur in the wild, but they are incredibly rare.
b. out of a certain number of animals found, just how many are really spectacular in colour or pattern? not just snakes.
c. how many albinos are spotted in the wild? the fact that seeing albinos in the wild is such a rare occurance just goes to prove my point.
at the end of the day it doesn't matter about field experience, master google skills, who is the better debater, you still can't provide any solid evidence other than a pic of 1 animal, a few articles on albinos that provided more evidence for me than you and the words of some nameless guy who spoke to you several years ago about (surprisingly) this very topic!
none of this can be backed up with any real SCIENTIFIC evidence. so my OPINION stands until you get a thousand jags or albinos and release them into the wild with radio tracking and then do the exact same with "normal" looking animals.
a. yes these animals do occur in the wild, but they are incredibly rare.
b. out of a certain number of animals found, just how many are really spectacular in colour or pattern? not just snakes.
c. how many albinos are spotted in the wild? the fact that seeing albinos in the wild is such a rare occurance just goes to prove my point.
at the end of the day it doesn't matter about field experience, master google skills, who is the better debater, you still can't provide any solid evidence other than a pic of 1 animal, a few articles on albinos that provided more evidence for me than you and the words of some nameless guy who spoke to you several years ago about (surprisingly) this very topic!
none of this can be backed up with any real SCIENTIFIC evidence. so my OPINION stands until you get a thousand jags or albinos and release them into the wild with radio tracking and then do the exact same with "normal" looking animals.
waruikazi
Legendary
Seriously, where do you think the gentics for all the things you croon over come from?
Hoyle00cdn
Not so new Member
Too much arguing going on in here.
For starters recessive doesn't necessarily mean the gene is weaker. It just means you need two of them to be visible in the animal.
Aesthetics doesn't play THAT much of a role in the survival chances of a reptile (or any animal). It might however play a heavier role in social hierarchy and breeding in the wild. In some species, females judge their mates based on various characteristics, and males fight each other over characteristics they perceive to be dominant or inferior. It doesn't mean that those traits are weaker, but if that animal gets into more fights because of it, the abuse will wear on it. If the albino trait is considered undesirable in the group, females will reject it, and other males will stand off more aggressively. As a result, the recessive genes rarely get passed on.
In captivity the breeding selection is more controlled, that same morph that would have gotten into dozens of fights in the wild is kept in isolation with a female who makes due with what she has available.
For starters recessive doesn't necessarily mean the gene is weaker. It just means you need two of them to be visible in the animal.
Aesthetics doesn't play THAT much of a role in the survival chances of a reptile (or any animal). It might however play a heavier role in social hierarchy and breeding in the wild. In some species, females judge their mates based on various characteristics, and males fight each other over characteristics they perceive to be dominant or inferior. It doesn't mean that those traits are weaker, but if that animal gets into more fights because of it, the abuse will wear on it. If the albino trait is considered undesirable in the group, females will reject it, and other males will stand off more aggressively. As a result, the recessive genes rarely get passed on.
In captivity the breeding selection is more controlled, that same morph that would have gotten into dozens of fights in the wild is kept in isolation with a female who makes due with what she has available.
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
With the thousands of bloodlines for carpets out there I would think we need no more wild genes for those
Probably the same could be said for most species
I completely agree that a limited number of species have come from a very few wild captures but surely these would be in a minority
Breeding for colour will definitely use a much smaller genetic group and eventually this may cause problems
aussie-albino
Active Member
Sorry I'm a bit late with this but the brightest and best jungles are still in the bush thats just a fact, and coastals and jungles are found in the same areas in I have found coastals here in the heart of jungle territory. If there are brighter coloured jungles in captivity to those in the wild I am yet to see one.Wild Jungles have a wide variation in colour and patterning in small areas as do coastal carpets. The brightest yellow jungle and the brightest white jungles I have seen have been wild ones.
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Scott
cheers
Scott
I can only speculate because i have only been to qld once which was 16years ago but i have no doubt that an otherwise healthy snake with more or less pattern as you described would have just as high of a chance at surviving as any other. It is essentially still the same pattern and it is still the same colour.
But try this on for size. This was a wild snake.
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