Couldnt have said better myself ...

[derekm]

It is interesting that he has specified vertebrates as being unsuitable for live feeding. I'm with him on mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians for a complex mix of personal preference, ethical and scientific reasons that I haven't fully unpicked. I'm less convinced about the ethics of feeding live fish and would be interested in opinions, especially in comparison to game fishing.

If Bill is OK with feeding live invertebrates, and because it is a good idea to offer alternative behaviours rather than just say "don't", perhaps he might suggest to those people who get pleasure from live feeding, that a more ethical alternative is that they keep tarantulas or centipedes and feed them live crickets, etc. to satisfy this desire.

 

[Dipcdame]

Is Australia the only country where live feeding is illegal? I know it's frowned upon by most hobbyists elsewhere, but certainly not illegal.




Mostly, I agree with this video. Though to me, cruel is not feeding live. I do not enjoy it, but look out into nature... it happens. These snakes, though outside of the wild, are still "wild animals." I'm not sure I agree with "every predator will scavenge." I do think that most who cannot get their snake to feed on f/t need to ajust their care and set ups rather the switch to live. This is most likely due to keeper error rather then the snake.

Yes, it IS infact, ILLEGAL................. read up on it.

Snakes in the wild feed on live, yes, but in comparison, a prospective meal has a much better chance of escape, and most of the time, does, when not confined in an enclosure and going through the terror of being stalked. These IS a difference.n Why should we put an animal through such terror being stalked by something that will surely ultimately kill it, when it's much kinder on the prey AND predator to kill and freeze it first (freezing kills any diseases and or parasites the animal may be carrying)

 

[DonkeyKong]

Live feeding is NOT illegal if it's a life and death case where a snake just won't eat thawed/freshly killed.
Honestly there are many more pressing matters on earth than who feeds live!

 

[derekm]

Is it cruel that I used to order thousands of crickets each month, live, to feed to various geckos? Why should we limit this to vertebrates? Do invertebrates not suffer?

Good question, but I think the answer, based on our current state of knowledge, is "no, for a given value of 'suffer'". I am of the opinion that the ability to suffer, as humans understand the concept, is proportionally related to the existence and complexity of a cerebrum.

 

[derekm]

Honestly there are many more pressing matters on earth than who feeds live!

Maybe this is a very pressing matter if the desire to live feed can be used in psychiatric practice as an indicator of latent psychopathy or schadenfreude??? That appears to be the unspoken sting in Bill's argument.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Maybe this is a very pressing matter if the desire to live feed can be used in psychiatric practice as an indicator of latent psychopathy or schadenfreude??? That appears to be the unspoken sting in Bill's argument.

Yeah we should all listen to the bearded weirdo

 

[Palex134]

Yes, it IS infact, ILLEGAL................. read up on it.

Snakes in the wild feed on live, yes, but in comparison, a prospective meal has a much better chance of escape, and most of the time, does, when not confined in an enclosure and going through the terror of being stalked. These IS a difference.n Why should we put an animal through such terror being stalked by something that will surely ultimately kill it, when it's much kinder on the prey AND predator to kill and freeze it first (freezing kills any diseases and or parasites the animal may be carrying)

I didn't ask if it was illegal in Australia, I stated it. I asked if Australia was the ONLY country where it was illegal. I believe this is true, meaning that only a minority of keepers (Australia vs. everyone else) are prohibited by law to feed live.


Disclaimer: Though I no longer keep herps, more into the herpetology aspect, I have always fed pre-killed rodents and do not agree with feeding live.

Those who have not witnessed live feeding before, law-abiding Australians, cannot accurately judge the situation. There is very little "stalking" involved for the most part, thus cruelty does not lie in the stalk. The actual killing of the prey is much more gruesome and "cruel". It is not a pleasant sight at all and for this reason I favor the law.

 

[ashisnothereman]

he has got several great points. very clever bloke haha.
personally i dont feed live, obviously it is cruel and illegal, but mostly i dont want a rat to take a nice chunk out of my snakes lip. which will probably lead to infection and canker.

also its just easier to feed prekilled. especially in a venomous snake scenario.. say a tiger decides its not hungry, now you have to risk your life invading the enclosure trying to get a live mouse out which will be running all over the place ******* the snake off.

 

[Mayhem]

I waited a while to comment on this thread, because although I agree, I could see the potential in it going pear shaped

I used to feed live many years ago, when I first had snakes and there wasnt forums and mediums like this to reflect on and get advice, and then I had a good 10 year break from keeping herps before I got back into it. To find such great things such as APS and better still, a developed herp/snake keeping population of people - It then made mee see another angle.

If you dig deep enough, you might actually find a thread of mine from "back in the day" that promotes and argues for live feeding, but I have to admit now, with my new appearance in the herp scene, I have now "seen the light"!

I remember scolding one of my mates for feeding his coastal carpet a raw peice of steak because his mum wouldnt let him feed live mice back in the day - and now I cant help but feel like in some senses, I must admit wrong doing.

I arnt as against live feeding as some of the people here (and on the youtube vid) - everything has a time and a place, but I definately now see that I was out of line in critisising people earlier on this year for not feeding live.

(note: my reasons were old fasioned and definately countered in this clip)

Anyways, humbley... *bow*

 

[redbellybite]

In my opinion you cant compare what you keep in captivity and the behaviours of those animals to their wild cousins ...although they may express similiar traits being its the same animal ..YOUR CAPTIVE ANIMAL IS JUST THAT CAPTIVE ...so you do the RIGHT thing by CAPTIVE ANIMALS ...very bloody simple no science degree here ...if its a case of you have tried EVERYTHING in your power to get your snake feeding and still not ..and I mean EVERYTHING ...then I can see why live feed would be considered other then that ..its a load of BS and the truth be told the owners of the animals involved get off on it ..

 

[DonkeyKong]

.its a load of BS and the truth be told the owners of the animals involved get off on it ..

Seems people who document wild reptiles eating must also be "sick"
Also seems that people want to replicate "wild conditions" as much as possible until it comes to live feeding. I can also assure you that people who "knock" their rodents dead have at least once feed a live rodent to a snake!
I don't feed live but at the same time I just don't see the harm if they are supervised

 

[redbellybite]

Donkey kong ...your not getting the jist ...wild docco's have there place ..and I dont regard them as sickos...
was talking about captive BIG difference ..and I am sure plenty have fed live at one time or another ..as with most things humans learn either by error ,cause its happened to them or they have seen what can happen ...thus saying this WE ALL KNOW THE RISKS regardless if you say watch them and no harm will happen
THAT IS BS it has happened quicker then you can react to retrieving the live rodent ..
and in all truth a good bite from a rodent will be nastier 99% of the time so your not ony putting your snake at risk but you also if you have to intervene...Do what you want ..not like we can stop you...but dont mean we have to go along with what is blatantly obvious ...

 

[mysnakesau]

I have been guilty of feeding live but not for the joy of it. I sold a baby snake couple years ago who, at the time was my best feeder. He was the first to start feeding, took his first offered and was no problem at all. 3 or 4 weeks after I sold him he was returned to me because his new owners were scared of him. He was very unsettled & suddenly my beautiful feeder was a bugger to feed. After 6 weeks I decided to try putting a live mouse in her tub and she pounced on it straight away. Tried to follow through with a thawed - NOPE - wouldn't take it. This became her new feeding for another 4 weeks until one day she just decided to look at the mouse and turned away. I was upset but wondered what he'd do if I offered him a thawed dead one. HE TOOK IT I couldn't believe it. I gave her another and he took that too. No more live feeding. He was back on track. Then she went to Melbourne and I was disappointed to be told by her new owner that she wouldn't eat and had to be assist-fed. Today she is still doing ok, eats every few weeks when she feels like it. I regreted selling that snake. Somehow I think she was meant to stay with me Not saying her new owner is a bad keeper, but she ate like a champ for me, won't for anyone else.

Now I'll go read the rest of the thread to see what else I can add. She, he, his, her, him. I have since been told she is a girl

 

[serpenttongue]

I just don't see the harm if they are supervised

The thing is, supervising a live feeding does not and will not help matters at all. At their preferred body temperature, and with an accurate aim, pythons will go for the nape of the animal. Seizing them behind the head and quickly wrapping it in coils means the prey cannot turn to bite the snake. However, in many cases, live rodents are just dropped into an enclosure and the snake has little time to plan things. At these times the prey may be seized by the snake in a less desirable area, such as the rump (especially if the snake is not at it's preferred body temperature), which allows the prey to turn and give the snake one hell of a nasty bite. What are you going to do if the snake grabs the prey by the rump, constricts it, but the prey has also turned and bitten deep into the snakes head, jaw, eye, throat etc?? Exactly how do you plan on intervening? The damage is done! Snakes that take a bite while constricting prey don't get the shock of their lives, release their bite and uncoil the prey as fast as they can. They continue to hold on until the prey is dead. There's nothing you can do at this time but sit and wait. You can't uncoil a snake (in feeding mode) from a live animal that also has a hold of the snake with it's sharp incisors, without things getting worse for the rodent, snake and perhaps even the keeper.

 

[mwloco]

Serpenttounge has it
At the end of the day is it worth risking the health of your snake to feed live?
NO!
You mite get away with it for ages with no hassles but there is just no point risking it.
The captive environment is never going to be the same as a wild environment where the snake can carefully choose its prey and plan of attack.

The thing is, supervising a live feeding does not and will not help matters at all. At their preferred body temperature, and with an accurate aim, pythons will go for the nape of the animal. Seizing them behind the head and quickly wrapping it in coils means the prey cannot turn to bite the snake. However, in many cases, live rodents are just dropped into an enclosure and the snake has little time to plan things. At these times the prey may be seized by the snake in a less desirable area, such as the rump (especially if the snake is not at it's preferred body temperature), which allows the prey to turn and give the snake one hell of a nasty bite. What are you going to do if the snake grabs the prey by the rump, constricts it, but the prey has also turned and bitten deep into the snakes head, jaw, eye, throat etc?? Exactly how do you plan on intervening? The damage is done! Snakes that take a bite while constricting prey don't get the shock of their lives, release their bite and uncoil the prey as fast as they can. They continue to hold on until the prey is dead. There's nothing you can do at this time but sit and wait. You can't uncoil a snake (in feeding mode) from a live animal that also has a hold of the snake with it's sharp incisors, without things getting worse for the rodent, snake and perhaps even the keeper.

 

[cris]

Live feeding can be educational, entertaining for the keeper and benificial stimulus for intellegent predators. It can also be an outlet for pyschopaths etc. who simply want to see another animal suffering. I dont think those that feed live fish or shrimps to their turtles are typically sadistic psychopaths yet in Qld its just as illegal as live feeding puppies to sharks.

I cant post it on here but there are a few interesting live feeding clips on youtube, one i watched recently of a taipan killing a rodent, for 99.99999% of us who will never see taipan feeding in the wild it has atleast some educational value.

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

Im in a converstion with a new snake keeper who says she has been taught by another keeper to only feed live.Sure there is a time and a place for it but the psychos are out there loving it.

 

[schizmz]

Here is an example of what can happen if you feed live prey.,when i got him i was told the scarring on his nose was due to a live rat when he was younger.:shock:..he eats dead np so i dunno how old he was when it happened..but look at his poor lil nose .

 

[Hooglabah]

im guilty of live feeding but i did it through ignorance i didn't know any better i had no idea it was illegal nor did i have any idea of the potential risks.

i was IGNORANT and while thats not an excuse i will admit i enjoyed watching my 4 ft port mac hammer a half grown mouse. the novelty did wear off the after the third time or so.

that was many years ago and would not replicate the situatuion ever again. point im trying to make is. If you know the risks know that its illegal and use the argument "its what happens in the wild" you are an idiot and a criminal.

my 2c

 

[Ships]

I'm not one for live feeding but to make a criminal out of someone who chooses to feed live mice is idiotic!