Feeding live prey

[junglist*]

do you take health supplememnts delly?? NOt at all deriding anyone's choiceto be a vego, but to claim it is a healthier way is just a blatant lie.

On the rats and freezer issue, i think that at the end of the day if you cannot stomach killing the prey item yourself, you really shouldnt be keeping an animal that needs to eat things which you have to kill yourself. Either that or not whinging about feeding live prey.

 

[Tatelina]

One point I don't think hasn't been clarified is why freezing toads is okay and rats aren't.

Toads cannot thermoregulate. As they get colder in the freezer they slow down (response time, pain receptors, breathing etc) they don't shiver to try and keep warm. A rat or any warm blodded animal will sit in the cold and shiver to try and keep warm. If they cannot keep warm enough through shivering they start to get cold and then start to get sleepy and fall asleep/pass out and then die of hypothermia. It is not a fast process though.

I have kept rats for breeding and used the 'whack to the head' procedure. It is not the nicest way to do it for me but it kills the rats quickly with a minimum of time and fuss.

Whacking baby rats on the head is even easier than adults as they are far less likely to bite back . The One bite I got from a rats was miles more painful the worst snake bite I got and bled a heck of a lot more too.

Ah some technicaility! Thankyou! I was wondering about that. My impression was that although they shiver and try to stay warm..animals that can thermoregulate get sleepy and pass out and its not painful.... Thats what I always thought up until a while ago. I should test the theory and put myself naked in the snow and see how that hurts I guess if I want to see a comparison.

I'd hurt you too if you were trying to kill me!
That is one of the reasons I feel abit 'blehk' to whacking...as you cant always get the suprise factor and so the animal can get stressed which in turn leads to not being as a humane death as possible (as well as missing when the animals stressed and trying to get out of your grip ect...)


Just had a thought.. what kind of noise do rodents make when they are being whacked?
=o
Not a very pleasant one I would assume.

 

[Timotei]

Nahuh, thats the duracell bunny, the energizer guy just never says die, which is silly cos there are plenty of things that die without actually saying the word "die".

As for vegetarianism, i think yes you can be a vegetarian, but it's why you're a vegetarian. Some people it's health issues in which they cannot eat meat, that's fair enuf, others say that they just don't like the taste, that's also fair enuf.

IF YOU SAY that you are vegetarian because you feel sorry for the animals then I'm sorry but i laugh in your face. I know, everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs, but seriously, animals are on earth for us to eat. HEY i've got a brilliant idea! let's all go find some lions, and some tigers, in fact, ANYTHING that eats meat, and give them a counselling session on how you can be just as healthy without doing it. Then, if the carnivores take your advice and start eating plants, they will all become terribly malnourished and die, then the populations of the herbivores will just SKYrocket, and destroy ALL the plants, then the vegos will hav nothing more to eat, because the damn zebras ate them all.

We are biologically part of the food web, and even though our numbers are drastically out of proportion, we play a part in maintaining the ecology in a stable situation. The fact is, that cow is gonna be killed, and is gonna be sitting in ur local supermarket on styrofoam trays, and as much as you refuse to eat him, he will still be there. Don't make his death be in vain, eat that cow.

"Red meat. We were made to eat it."

 

[dellywatts]

do you take health supplememnts delly?? NOt at all deriding anyone's choiceto be a vego, but to claim it is a healthier way is just a blatant lie.

On the rats and freezer issue, i think that at the end of the day if you cannot stomach killing the prey item yourself, you really shouldnt be keeping an animal that needs to eat things which you have to kill yourself. Either that or not whinging about feeding live prey.

I never said it was a healthier way. I said that I am healthy. And no i don't take supplements. I have never had to. I get all i need from fruit and vegetables.

I could never personally kill the mice and rats for my snake. That's what the reptile supply stores are for. You can't tell me that everyone that has a snake kills the food for them themselves. And feeding live prey is illegal!

 

[Timotei]

Live vertebrate prey... suggesting that you cld technically remove the spinal cord of your rats and mice and still feed them....? Taboo ?

 

[Tsidasa]

Ah some technicaility! Thankyou! I was wondering about that. My impression was that although they shiver and try to stay warm..animals that can thermoregulate get sleepy and pass out and its not painful.... Thats what I always thought up until a while ago. I should test the theory and put myself naked in the snow and see how that hurts I guess if I want to see a comparison.

I'd hurt you too if you were trying to kill me!
That is one of the reasons I feel abit 'blehk' to whacking...as you cant always get the suprise factor and so the animal can get stressed which in turn leads to not being as a humane death as possible (as well as missing when the animals stressed and trying to get out of your grip ect...)


Just had a thought.. what kind of noise do rodents make when they are being whacked?
=o
Not a very pleasant one I would assume.

I hate the snow, it's cold and it makes everything hurt =( i definately wouldn't wanna go that way. However if you have just come out of a hot tub you have a good ten minutes of starkers time before the cold sets in :lol:

 

[Wrasse]

No noise at all.

 

[slim6y]

I like it how some people say if you can't handle killing the prey items then don't keep a snake.

How many of you keep cats and dogs? Did you kill phar lap for your doggie?

The point is... We do detract ourselves from our very own dinner.... we don't want to see what is killed for our plate (as a whole)... Some people get a thrill out of the power of a snake and watching it kill its prey. And for the whole, it is healthy for the snake to get its natural instincts going.

But for the sake of a 'normal' snake in captivity, that feeds well on frozzies, then why take it to the extreme and feed it a livie? The whole idea of feeding live seems to be a little neglectful of the whole situation... for a snake that is... But it is obviously acceptable, and funnily enough, to feed your frogs on crickets and roaches...

Why do we not see them as living? well the way I see it is - we do... But the speed at which they're consumed is overwhelmingly fast and little or no suffering would be had by the insect.

On the other hand, many pesticides which kill our insects causes them to suffer unduly...

I don't exactly know where i am heading with this particular thread... but - anything in a frozen (ie freezer) including reptiles, is not a helathy alternative to whacking them on the head. Cane toads and the like still should be put out of their misery as quickly as possible.

The quicker people realise and do this, the better!

 

[munkee]

Tatelina. Funny thing is he bit me when I picked him up to clean him out!!

If you whack em right, they make no noise at all. when you stuff it (and to begin with you do once or twice) they go to quote someone earlier in the thread 'eeeeeek!'.

The animals will fall sleepy and go to sleep but not before the body does everything possible to stay alive. Things like withdrawing blood flow from extremities (fingers, toes and limbs) to keep the vital organs warm. This means frostbite in toes and sometimes limbs before the falling asleep part.

There is no perfect way to kill prey items. I am not too bothered as to the suffering of the rodent/rabbit (better than live feeding IMO, as it is safer for the snake). But a quick kill prior to freezing allows good packaging and a better condition food item for your pet.

 

[Tatelina]

But for the sake of a 'normal' snake in captivity, that feeds well on frozzies, then why take it to the extreme and feed it a livie? The whole idea of feeding live seems to be a little neglectful of the whole situation... for a snake that is... But it is obviously acceptable, and funnily enough, to feed your frogs on crickets and roaches...

Why do we not see them as living? well the way I see it is - we do... But the speed at which they're consumed is overwhelmingly fast and little or no suffering would be had by the insect.

On the other hand, many pesticides which kill our insects causes them to suffer unduly...

Hey are you trying to start a duracell thread on feeding live insects?? Geez.. But most insects are eaten and die in about 0.4seconds anyway..unlike the rodents who at times take full minutes to die (when fed live).

um on the subject of cane toads!

Adult viewing, language warning!

video - where is baz

freezing in unacceptable, this is far better! :shock:

hahaha thats funny. Thanks for that.

 

[slim6y]

Hey are you trying to start a duracell thread on feeding live insects?? Geez.. But most insects are eaten and die in about 0.4seconds anyway..unlike the rodents who at times take full minutes to die (when fed live).

hehe... i believe that was my point exactly... Insects don't even suffer!!! Anyways... what's with a duracell?

 

[Reptilian]

No offence people, but the thread is about HUMANELY KILLING FOOD..........whichever way you look at it, ask yourself this...Is killing anything, in any different way evr HUMANE??? NO...but animals need to eat, and if we feed our herps live or dead food, WE are still KILLING...as i said, animals need food for survival, so what else can ya do? I WILL feed my snake live food occasionally, just as i feed my beardies live insects, and yes i will kill the mice however i want, i dont care what you all think because the bottom line is MY HERPS NEED TO EAT....the food is still going to die whichever method you use...

@ APL and MEL, i think the freezer technique is a good one if you cant bring yourself to knock it out...

 

[slim6y]

No offence people, but the thread is about HUMANELY KILLING FOOD..........whichever way you look at it, ask yourself this...Is killing anything, in any different way evr HUMANE??? NO...but animals need to eat, and if we feed our herps live or dead food, WE are still KILLING...as i said, animals need food for survival, so what else can ya do? I WILL feed my snake live food occasionally, just as i feed my beardies live insects, and yes i will kill the mice however i want, i dont care what you all think because the bottom line is MY HERPS NEED TO EAT....the food is still going to die whichever method you use...

@ APL and MEL, i think the freezer technique is a good one if you cant bring yourself to knock it out...

Why do you think it's good to kill an animal by freezing them to death? Can you elaborate?

 

[Hickson]

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979

5 Cruelty to animals

(1) A person shall not commit an act of cruelty upon an animal.
(2) A person in charge of an animal shall not authorise the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal.
(3) A person in charge of an animal shall not fail at any time:
(a) to exercise reasonable care, control or supervision of an animal to prevent the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal,
(b) where pain is being inflicted upon the animal, to take such reasonable steps as are necessary to alleviate the pain, or
(c) where it is necessary for the animal to be provided with veterinary treatment, whether or not over a period of time, to provide it with that treatment.

Maximum penalty: 250 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 50 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both, in the case of an individual.

 

[Reptilian]

Why do you think it's good to kill an animal by freezing them to death? Can you elaborate?

I did explain, i said "IF YOU CANT BRING YOURSELF TO KNOCK IT OVER THE HEAD"

BUT as i did try to say "KILLING OF ANY ANIMALS IS NOT HUMANE" but "IT IS THE INTEREST OF OUR HERPS, THAT THEY MUST EAT"

 

[Tatelina]

Anyways, sorry for prematurely texting in return... i did think it was me... but now I feel dissapointed because now you don't think I am young anymore... well, atleast older than 16

Geez! You're so young and immature! Feel better?

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979

5 Cruelty to animals

(1) A person shall not commit an act of cruelty upon an animal.
(2) A person in charge of an animal shall not authorise the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal.
(3) A person in charge of an animal shall not fail at any time:
(a) to exercise reasonable care, control or supervision of an animal to prevent the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal,
(b) where pain is being inflicted upon the animal, to take such reasonable steps as are necessary to alleviate the pain, or
(c) where it is necessary for the animal to be provided with veterinary treatment, whether or not over a period of time, to provide it with that treatment.

Maximum penalty: 250 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 50 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both, in the case of an individual.

There we go! Explained in legal terms through text.
Hey Hix how would you kill your food if you bred them?

 

[slim6y]

I did explain, i said "IF YOU CANT BRING YOURSELF TO KNOCK IT OVER THE HEAD"

BUT as i did try to say "KILLING OF ANY ANIMALS IS NOT HUMANE" but "IT IS THE INTEREST OF OUR HERPS, THAT THEY MUST EAT"

Sorry Reptilian, i just didn't buy that as a justification for freezing rodents - because you can't bring yourself to whack it...

Different league, but what if you can't bring yourself to change your babies nappies? I hated doing that - it was yucky... but you know, i did it... It was a poor example - but the idea is the same...

Ok... So some people are squeemish, that's acceptable - but what is not acceptable, and is in fact punishable by law, is the treatment of animals being killed in a manner that is considered cruel. MINIMISING pain (and anxiety) is noted in Hix's post earlier.

Therefore I don't think anyone can not justify fairly the use of a freezer to kill a mammal for food because you're unable to knock it on the head....

Note: Reptilian - this is not a dig at you, or anyone - it's MY idea and the way I see the scripture. As the idea it's ok to kill by freezing is your idea - but apparently not one held by the law or many of the people on this site...

 

[Reptilian]

Thats fair enough slim, and im not takin it as a personal dig...what im merely trying to make the point of is:

Wheather or not you minimise pain, you/we are still MURDERING defenceless animals for the sake of wanting to keep herps...are you saying that if i was a cannibal that it would be fine for me to murder other humans if i did so by minimsing pain???

 

[slim6y]

Thats fair enough slim, and im not takin it as a personal dig...what im merely trying to make the point of is:

Wheather or not you minimise pain, you/we are still MURDERING defenceless animals for the sake of wanting to keep herps...are you saying that if i was a cannibal that it would be fine for me to murder other humans if i did so by minimsing pain???

hehe... thanks for not taking it personal...

Ok - here's my wrap on this...

1) We do kill, not murder, animals for our snakes - either directly or indirectly... as we do for our dinner plates, our cats, our dogs etc... This is done within certian and very strict guidelines that minimises pain and suffering.

2) If I was to be eaten because of cannibalism or by another animal... I would prefer it to be quick and painless than long and suffering. That's absolutely correct!

However - we have left the day and age where clubbing animals to death, spearing them or what ever method we used - now we're sophisticated with stunning and slaughtering... It's all a bit much - but these animals die with minimal pain - and that is important...

Sorry - but I have to go now - would love to write more... have a nice die

 

[Timotei]

Hmm, just seems lyk we're saying the same thing. Basically, we've established that CO2 is the most humane to kill, and Reptilian, I agree, we are going to kill the animal, but wouldn't it be better to do it as quick and painless as possible ? As Slim6y sed.

Lol, i think the example of cannibalism is a touch extreme, seeing as we are most definitely higher beings than other animals, and I will not be swayed in this belief. A better comparison would hav been, killing cows, we're going to kill them anyway, shouldnt it be quickly and painlessly ? The answer is yes, altho it's not always done that way, as Troy Mclure says in the simpsons:

"From there they go on to the killing floor. Oh don't let the name fool you, Billy, it's not realy a floor, more of a metal grate where the chunks of meat are ground up and slide through."

But all the same, this thread has gone on too long, and we've sed all this before, i think it's about time it finished! (Sorry to try and claim the last say )