SpilotaFreak78
Well-Known Member
Are the Gammons of the Spilota Genus like the Carpets or just of the Morelia Genus like Olives and GTS and Scrubs and such
Gammon Ranges Carpets? Anyone got any info on these?
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trader
Very Well-Known Member
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Suenstu
Active Member
Let me know how you go with your inquiry I replied to...
Thank you for that! (you just prompted me to check my emails)
CoastalGirl78, from all I've been able to find out they are a Carpet, so Morelia spilota metcalfei I think is the name I've seen related to them more than anything else... Olives are a different matter and (I think) are liasis olivaceus.
But really I'm just an obessessed noob who is trying to learn as much as possible so maybe someone else should respond to this.?
I SO love hearing this!!!!
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SpilotaFreak78
Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm still in noob stage myself, just geting as much info as I can atm, I know about all the common Spilotas but then Ive heard of Gammons, Port Macs, Cape Yorks and I found talk that perhaps Bredliis were recategorized into the Spilota lot, plus I'm learning all about the breeding terms and morph types for when I join my friend who is starting her breeding biz and wants me to join her as I want to specialise with Morelias, specifically Spilotas while she deals with all the otehr types of Pyhtons and venoms
FusionMorelia
Well-Known Member
they are certainly not an MD variation imo, the colour/pattern and local differences suggest this very strongly.
i would say the location of wild caught specimens and DNA, maybe? also certainly the the colour/pattern and local differences point to it not being metcalfei and more imbricata but thats my view of it im not a PHD by any stretch of the imagination lol,
Nato
i would say the location of wild caught specimens and DNA, maybe? also certainly the the colour/pattern and local differences point to it not being metcalfei and more imbricata but thats my view of it im not a PHD by any stretch of the imagination lol,
Nato
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
G'day N.A.T.O,
I'd hazard a guess that the reason you don't think they look like typical Murray Darling's is because those represented in captivity are the generally the boring grey and brown specimens normally found in the areas around South Australia, Victoria and southern NSW. If you were to see some specimens from Goyder's Lagoon, Windorah or Wilcannia your view on what a Murray Darling is might change. They are a highly variable species, with some brilliant reds, oranges and greens been exhibited.
I'd hazard a guess that the reason you don't think they look like typical Murray Darling's is because those represented in captivity are the generally the boring grey and brown specimens normally found in the areas around South Australia, Victoria and southern NSW. If you were to see some specimens from Goyder's Lagoon, Windorah or Wilcannia your view on what a Murray Darling is might change. They are a highly variable species, with some brilliant reds, oranges and greens been exhibited.
cement
Very Well-Known Member
Bushfire
Well-Known Member
Here is a picture of a Pilliga locale MD. (Picture from Kelly).
Murray/Darling or inland carpet - Hawkesbury Reptiles
I got some bubs from her last season and they are looking very promising so far, nothing like the average MDs.
Murray/Darling or inland carpet - Hawkesbury Reptiles
I got some bubs from her last season and they are looking very promising so far, nothing like the average MDs.
You CAN tell most of the subspecies apart with DNA. The genetic evidence has been misrepresented over and over again with regard to this. Mcdowelli, spilota, variegata can all be differentiated by DNA, cheynei was shown to be indistinguishable from mcdowelli at the genetic level.
Bredli has always been a full species, and as such there is no need to elevate it. For some inexplicable reason a few authors have simply chosen to refer to bredli as a subspecies, with no justification at all. It was originaly described by Gow, in 1981 as M. bredli.
The only comprehensive testing done has been (Taylor, 2005), in that work it was shown that in fact you CAN tell most of the subspecies apart with DNA and in fact that MDs are very nearly a full species.
The problem is that that the current trend among many researchers is to abolish the rank of subspecies. So its not that they are not valid, its more about the use of the phylogenetic species concept which does now allow the taxonomic rank of subspecies.
So simply say that the subspecies are not valid is extremely misleading because it implies that they never were valid, when in reality its just a matter of some researchers not liking the notion of any subspecies at all.
That paper showed that metcalfei fell just short of their definition of a FULL species, yet also claims that metcalfei are not a valid suspecies??? its an ideological issue.
The bottom line is that if you accept the validity of the taxonomic rank of "subspecies" then some of the carpet pythons meet that definition.
Nick
Bredli has always been a full species, and as such there is no need to elevate it. For some inexplicable reason a few authors have simply chosen to refer to bredli as a subspecies, with no justification at all. It was originaly described by Gow, in 1981 as M. bredli.
The only comprehensive testing done has been (Taylor, 2005), in that work it was shown that in fact you CAN tell most of the subspecies apart with DNA and in fact that MDs are very nearly a full species.
The problem is that that the current trend among many researchers is to abolish the rank of subspecies. So its not that they are not valid, its more about the use of the phylogenetic species concept which does now allow the taxonomic rank of subspecies.
So simply say that the subspecies are not valid is extremely misleading because it implies that they never were valid, when in reality its just a matter of some researchers not liking the notion of any subspecies at all.
That paper showed that metcalfei fell just short of their definition of a FULL species, yet also claims that metcalfei are not a valid suspecies??? its an ideological issue.
The bottom line is that if you accept the validity of the taxonomic rank of "subspecies" then some of the carpet pythons meet that definition.
Nick
great explanation nick, I am not very articulate with my words so hoped someone could put it down, my view on gammon range carpets is they are a natural integration of metcalfei and imbricata much like diamonds and coastals north of Newcastle, just my view.Tim
Gammons are in the genus Morelia their species is spilota in this particular thread there is question over which subspecies they belong.
In order a scientific name goes Genus,Species,Subspecies eg: Morelia spilota imbricata.
GTP and Scrubs both belong in the genus Morelia. however Olives belong in the genus Liasis, Liasis olivaceus.
Taxonomy can be difficult to get your head around but there is a few websites or fieldguides that can help you understand classifications a bit better.
FusionMorelia
Well-Known Member
i was making my judgment based on the very small amount of field herp info and talking at length to SXR.
i am quite aware the wild and captive colour /patter are completely different, thats why i said
their is a high red in project for captives and then associated my view on their sub species from field herping info
and speaking to the people who have had them captive longest to gain their views on this rare specimen,
this animal is rare both in captive specimins and more so in the wild,
from the very small info on them their location of capture the color and pattern(particularly the head) and info i have gained from people who own them and have for quite awhile strongly suggests its not a form of inland,
i stand by it as it looks right from my point of view
Nato
i am quite aware the wild and captive colour /patter are completely different, thats why i said
their is a high red in project for captives and then associated my view on their sub species from field herping info
and speaking to the people who have had them captive longest to gain their views on this rare specimen,
this animal is rare both in captive specimins and more so in the wild,
from the very small info on them their location of capture the color and pattern(particularly the head) and info i have gained from people who own them and have for quite awhile strongly suggests its not a form of inland,
i stand by it as it looks right from my point of view
Nato
NATO PM'd me about this thread and asked if I could add some info about them. Most of the info above is pretty accurate, but perhaps I can summarise what I know about the Gammons.
Originally I found out about the Gammon Carpets from a well know geologist called Reg Sprigg. Reg started the 610 sq kilometre Arkaroola Wilderness Sanctuary and the Arkaroola Lodge facilities many, many years ago. Perhaps 20 years ago I met Reg and he explained to me that the carpet pythons around Arkaroola used to be quite common but that he rarely saw them anymore. However, he knew someone with a property where some could still be found, and so in the fullness of time he introduced me to the owner of this property. I made many a trip to the area over the years trying to find these pythons. I found that the best way to find them was after a good season when the corellas would nest in the red river gums along the many creeks on this and surrounding properties. The pythons could be found in the nesting hollows enjoying young Corella for dinner. At other times, the best place to find them was around the more permanent waterholes and springs. This country is very rocky and provides secure hiding places for the pythons and hence good protection from predators like the fox.
Research by the SA Museum in collaboration with the Uni of Adelaide has found that they are much closer related to the SW Carpet (imbricata) than the Inland carpet (metcalfei).
All the founder animals have come from an area on or near the road that runs from Copley through to Arkaroola. It took many years to get a breeding program started. The Fauna Permit Unit in SA did everything they could to thwart attempts to introduce this carpet into captivity. The Dept of Environment had no plans to study, to protect or to learn anything about this carpet but they were more than willing to stop the public having access to them. Eventually I ended up with a male but couldn’t get a female. Another person, a lady who was friends with the landowners mentioned earlier, managed to obtain a male and a female using the rescue permit system. I tried to borrow these animals for breeding but couldn’t. The holder of these other Gammons wanted to breed them herself and to make money by selling them. The only solution was for me to teach them how to breed, how to make an incubator etc etc, so I helped them develop the breeding regime and techniques to breed them in captivity and gave them my only Gammon. Eventually they did breed them using their own male and again with my male and so they were introduced into captivity. I ended up selling all the initial animals on their behalf, giving them all the proceeds from the sales and then even had to buy my own snakes!... but at least they are now in captivity.
They are almost identical to keep and breed as the inland carpet. They are a lovely gentle animal and in the wild can grow in size to something that would rival the average bredli. They are a strong bird feeder, but will thrive on rodents. They are quite a late season breeder like bredli.
I haven’t seen any in the wild for over 7 years now. However, like many parts of Australia there has been an extensive drought in the Gammons. This drought has recently broken. I was up in the Gammons a week ago and the vegetation has exploded into growth and the water holes are full of water. I expect this spring is going to be an exceptional one and perhaps with all the nesting parrots it will be a great year for the Gammon Carpets. I certainly intend to get up into the area a number of times this spring.
Finally, if anyone is interested in owning some of these lovely Gammons, I still have a few 18 month old animals available.
You can also find out more about them on our website at Southern Cross Reptiles - Gammon Ranges Carpet Pythons
Originally I found out about the Gammon Carpets from a well know geologist called Reg Sprigg. Reg started the 610 sq kilometre Arkaroola Wilderness Sanctuary and the Arkaroola Lodge facilities many, many years ago. Perhaps 20 years ago I met Reg and he explained to me that the carpet pythons around Arkaroola used to be quite common but that he rarely saw them anymore. However, he knew someone with a property where some could still be found, and so in the fullness of time he introduced me to the owner of this property. I made many a trip to the area over the years trying to find these pythons. I found that the best way to find them was after a good season when the corellas would nest in the red river gums along the many creeks on this and surrounding properties. The pythons could be found in the nesting hollows enjoying young Corella for dinner. At other times, the best place to find them was around the more permanent waterholes and springs. This country is very rocky and provides secure hiding places for the pythons and hence good protection from predators like the fox.
Research by the SA Museum in collaboration with the Uni of Adelaide has found that they are much closer related to the SW Carpet (imbricata) than the Inland carpet (metcalfei).
All the founder animals have come from an area on or near the road that runs from Copley through to Arkaroola. It took many years to get a breeding program started. The Fauna Permit Unit in SA did everything they could to thwart attempts to introduce this carpet into captivity. The Dept of Environment had no plans to study, to protect or to learn anything about this carpet but they were more than willing to stop the public having access to them. Eventually I ended up with a male but couldn’t get a female. Another person, a lady who was friends with the landowners mentioned earlier, managed to obtain a male and a female using the rescue permit system. I tried to borrow these animals for breeding but couldn’t. The holder of these other Gammons wanted to breed them herself and to make money by selling them. The only solution was for me to teach them how to breed, how to make an incubator etc etc, so I helped them develop the breeding regime and techniques to breed them in captivity and gave them my only Gammon. Eventually they did breed them using their own male and again with my male and so they were introduced into captivity. I ended up selling all the initial animals on their behalf, giving them all the proceeds from the sales and then even had to buy my own snakes!... but at least they are now in captivity.
They are almost identical to keep and breed as the inland carpet. They are a lovely gentle animal and in the wild can grow in size to something that would rival the average bredli. They are a strong bird feeder, but will thrive on rodents. They are quite a late season breeder like bredli.
I haven’t seen any in the wild for over 7 years now. However, like many parts of Australia there has been an extensive drought in the Gammons. This drought has recently broken. I was up in the Gammons a week ago and the vegetation has exploded into growth and the water holes are full of water. I expect this spring is going to be an exceptional one and perhaps with all the nesting parrots it will be a great year for the Gammon Carpets. I certainly intend to get up into the area a number of times this spring.
Finally, if anyone is interested in owning some of these lovely Gammons, I still have a few 18 month old animals available.
You can also find out more about them on our website at Southern Cross Reptiles - Gammon Ranges Carpet Pythons
ozziepythons
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your input Simon. Glad you've stated on here that the hard data has been obtained from research to prove the genetic relationship the Flinders Ranges Carpets have is closer to imbricata than metcalfei. Based upon morphological characteristics, specifically the colour and arrangement of the GR Carpet's dorsal patterns strongly lends itself to an imbricata origin and far less so metcalfei. 'Murray/Darling' Carpets I have seen from Goyders Lagoon in northern SA, the Paroo River in south western Qld, Kinchega on the Darling in western NSW and Robertstown in the northern Mt Lofty Ranges in SA have all had the atypical metcalfei dorsal pattern with varying amounts of black and maroon colouration. The form of Morelia in the Flinders Ranges does not represent metcalfei. A specimen I observed at Alligator Gorge in the southern Flinders Ranges looked far more like the imbricata I had seen west of Whyalla than it did a metcalfei I have seen south at Robertstown. I am glad Simon has the hard data from research scientists collaborating between SAM and Adelaide Uni, and as I have been lucky enough to observe either wild or captive bred, known locality Carpets from the aforementioned regions I can speak with conviction the data adds up.
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Suenstu
Active Member
This is just awesome! I'm so glad I asked the question, I seriously never expected to get such a response.
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed (and hopefully will continue to contribute if/when any more info is available).
I'm fairly keen now I think to have one (probably 2, and maybe even try the breeding thing).
Many Thanks again for all the responses, lively debate, expression of ideas. Really valuable and very very much appreciated.
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed (and hopefully will continue to contribute if/when any more info is available).
I'm fairly keen now I think to have one (probably 2, and maybe even try the breeding thing).
Many Thanks again for all the responses, lively debate, expression of ideas. Really valuable and very very much appreciated.
FusionMorelia
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that Simon i love keeping MD Gammons and roughie talks going
can i ask though about this,
also for me would you have any pics of a wild gammons?
Cheers mate
Nato
can i ask though about this,
so how do they do this research, is it DNA or visual and field data or a combo of both?
also for me would you have any pics of a wild gammons?
Cheers mate
Nato
ozziepythons
Well-Known Member
Morphological characteristics (i.e. pattern arrangement, colouration, scale count) would certainly have been considered when attempting to link the direction of gene flow between the neighbouring populations. However in the case of Carpet Pythons in the Flinders Ranges, inparticular Gammon Ranges specimens, the link to imbricata was ultimately determined by DNA sequencing.
Following on from my previous post and the subsequent posts ... a bit more on the separation of the Gammons from metcalfei and alignment with imbricata. The research I refer to was done by Steve Donnellan's research group through a number of students (honours and PhD). I have copies of the original works somewhere, but when I went to look for it I couldn't readily put my hands on it ... I have a very large library on snakes ... but I'll see if I can find the references when I get a chance.
The long and the short of the research is that it was not based on morphology or qualitative measurements, but on objective empirical studies. I can't remember all the details but as I recall, there were three sets of data used. One set was using mitochondrial DNA and microsatellite data, another was gel electrophoresis which looks at specific proteins and their differences, and I can't remember the third. Anyway, what was found was that carpets fell into three distinct groups, imbricata, bredli and all the rest. All the rest show marked variation at either ends of their range but there is continuous gradual change across the range through all the intermediate populations. In other words, there is some interbreeding going on across all the current "subspecies" of the eastern carpets so that no population is truly reproductively isolated or completely distinct. However, there are points across the range where the rate of change is greater than in others indicating some partial barriers to gene flow.
Within this landscape, the Gammon Carpet is much more closely aligned to the Western Carpet than anything in the east. A look at veg and topographical maps help to understand this. Ozziepythons raised the subject of other SA Carpets. I agree with the comments about the carpets near Whyalla and on the Eyre Peninsula looking more like imbricata than metcalfei. However, we differ in our view on the Goyder's Lagoon Carpets. To me their pattern looks more like the Inland Carpet than the SW Carpet. I think research will show that the inland carpet (metcalfei) has some sub-speciation through their geographic isolation so that there are distinct populations on the Murray-Darling System, the Cooper Creek System, the Diamantina and possibly some of the other minor river systems. Of course Australia used to be a lot wetter a while back and so the populations would have blended into each other more. As the country has dried the central and SW populations were isolated and then the various river system populations isolated. The variation between the populations growing with their time apart and the selective pressures on them.
Anyway, back to the Gammons, they are a lovely placid animal, in serious trouble in the wild, a remnant of the SW Carpet and a unique component of the Australia Herpetofauna.
The long and the short of the research is that it was not based on morphology or qualitative measurements, but on objective empirical studies. I can't remember all the details but as I recall, there were three sets of data used. One set was using mitochondrial DNA and microsatellite data, another was gel electrophoresis which looks at specific proteins and their differences, and I can't remember the third. Anyway, what was found was that carpets fell into three distinct groups, imbricata, bredli and all the rest. All the rest show marked variation at either ends of their range but there is continuous gradual change across the range through all the intermediate populations. In other words, there is some interbreeding going on across all the current "subspecies" of the eastern carpets so that no population is truly reproductively isolated or completely distinct. However, there are points across the range where the rate of change is greater than in others indicating some partial barriers to gene flow.
Within this landscape, the Gammon Carpet is much more closely aligned to the Western Carpet than anything in the east. A look at veg and topographical maps help to understand this. Ozziepythons raised the subject of other SA Carpets. I agree with the comments about the carpets near Whyalla and on the Eyre Peninsula looking more like imbricata than metcalfei. However, we differ in our view on the Goyder's Lagoon Carpets. To me their pattern looks more like the Inland Carpet than the SW Carpet. I think research will show that the inland carpet (metcalfei) has some sub-speciation through their geographic isolation so that there are distinct populations on the Murray-Darling System, the Cooper Creek System, the Diamantina and possibly some of the other minor river systems. Of course Australia used to be a lot wetter a while back and so the populations would have blended into each other more. As the country has dried the central and SW populations were isolated and then the various river system populations isolated. The variation between the populations growing with their time apart and the selective pressures on them.
Anyway, back to the Gammons, they are a lovely placid animal, in serious trouble in the wild, a remnant of the SW Carpet and a unique component of the Australia Herpetofauna.
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