Is it bad to buy brother and sister. Same clutch.

[Camo]

Hey all,

Is it bad to buy 2 snakes, male and female from the same clutch?

Cheers

Cameron

 

[AustHerps]

Not at all

We often buy a male and female from each clutch... Because, ultimately, when buying an animal, you generally want it to look like it's parents. Buying two means there's a higher chance of ending up with a purchase closest to what you're after. Another reason for buying two animals from a clutch is that each might display better phenotypes than the other. I.e. one might show the brilliant red a father bredli, whilst another might have the much nicer patterning of the mother. Buying both means you get the best of both worlds

However, if you plan on owning just ONE breeding pair, it's not advisable to buy related snakes. Inbreeding leads to shorter lifespans, health defects, etc etc. And nobody wants a redneck snake :S In the end, buying in bulk is cheaper... so, if it suits your purpose, breeding wise, etc, buy one pair from one person, and another pair from someone else, that way you'll have two pairs

Cheers,
Austy.

 

[snakegal]

Re: RE: Is it bad to buy brother and sister. Same clutch.

I've been told theres nothing wrong with breeding bro and sis? Or is that more after 3-4 generations of in-breeding?

Not at all

We often buy a male and female from each clutch... Because, ultimately, when buying an animal, you generally want it to look like it's parents. Buying two means there's a higher chance of ending up with a purchase closest to what you're after. Another reason for buying two animals from a clutch is that each might display better phenotypes than the other. I.e. one might show the brilliant red a father bredli, whilst another might have the much nicer patterning of the mother. Buying both means you get the best of both worlds

However, if you plan on owning just ONE breeding pair, it's not advisable to buy related snakes. Inbreeding leads to shorter lifespans, health defects, etc etc. And nobody wants a redneck snake :S In the end, buying in bulk is cheaper... so, if it suits your purpose, breeding wise, etc, buy one pair from one person, and another pair from someone else, that way you'll have two pairs

Cheers,
Austy.

 

[Davo66]

The whole concept of breeding with closely related stock annoys the crap out of me! How many animals, (varying species) do humans have to interbreed and do immence genetic damage to? Referring to the dog world, we have bulldogs and pug dogs which were heavily interbreed and the end result is an animal that can hardly breath properly. I am a huge German Shepherd fan and I do not need to mention the shocking hip problems associated with the breed and other large breeds resulting from interbreeding and irresponsible selective breeding. I conceed the whole selective breeding thing, but when interbreeding causes slight, minor and in some case terrible genetic problems and ailments then is the whole process worth it. There is ample breeding stock out there to experiment with, why be cheap and lazy and breed with animals of the same birth stock? do pythons naturally interbreed, (incestually I mean) in the wild? Very few animal species reproduce incestually. The african cheetah is an example where incestual breeding is force upon then due to deminishing numbers. This has led to the decline of the animals immune system and a variety of other genetic deformities and deficiencies.

It astounds me that we can convince ourselves that it is OK! Scientifically and genetically speaking I am sure there is someone out there who can shoot my points down in flames with documented evidence and case studies, but if it was the norm for wildlife to mate with their siblings or parents surely it would be evident in a greater number of species.

Well thats it for what grinds my gears!!! lol


Cheers, Davo

 

[Retic]

As has been said before reptiles by and large seem not to be affected in the same way as mammals when it comes to inbreeding. I think it was the Barkers who have shown that pythons can be bred 6 or more generations without ill affects. 2 or 3 generations certainly aren't a problem.
Mammal examples can't be used with reptiles.

 

[FAY]

HAHA I am sure in the wild when it is time to mate....they don't say to each other Are you my Bro or Sis???

 

[raptor]

The whole concept of breeding with closely related stock annoys the crap out of me! How many animals, (varying species) do humans have to interbreed and do immence genetic damage to? Referring to the dog world, we have bulldogs and pug dogs which were heavily interbreed and the end result is an animal that can hardly breath properly. I am a huge German Shepherd fan and I do not need to mention the shocking hip problems associated with the breed and other large breeds resulting from interbreeding and irresponsible selective breeding. I conceed the whole selective breeding thing, but when interbreeding causes slight, minor and in some case terrible genetic problems and ailments then is the whole process worth it. There is ample breeding stock out there to experiment with, why be cheap and lazy and breed with animals of the same birth stock? do pythons naturally interbreed, (incestually I mean) in the wild? Very few animal species reproduce incestually. The african cheetah is an example where incestual breeding is force upon then due to deminishing numbers. This has led to the decline of the animals immune system and a variety of other genetic deformities and deficiencies.

It astounds me that we can convince ourselves that it is OK! Scientifically and genetically speaking I am sure there is someone out there who can shoot my points down in flames with documented evidence and case studies, but if it was the norm for wildlife to mate with their siblings or parents surely it would be evident in a greater number of species.

Well thats it for what grinds my gears!!! lol


Cheers, Davo

Couldnt Agree more

 

[rexs1]

As has been said before reptiles by and large seem not to be affected in the same way as mammals when it comes to inbreeding. I think it was the Barkers who have shown that pythons can be bred 6 or more generations without ill affects. 2 or 3 generations certainly aren't a problem.
Mammal examples can't be used with reptiles.

I couldnt agree more boa.
90% of captive black and gold jungles all came from the same line.

Think about how many adds you see for sale quoting '' Krauss'' line black and gold jungles. That line started years ago, and its producing better animals all the time
nick

 

[Magpie]

Couldnt Agree more

So how do you determine if your reptiles are "unrelated"?
Do you have genetic tests done on them?
Or do you only ever breed animals from totally diferent localities together?

 

[munkee]

Inbreeding is not what causes the degredation of the animals 'vigor' it is the selection process by the breeder. Cattle, horses, dogs and cats are all line bred (especially competition breeders) to achieve certain characteristics that are deemed desirable. The problems arise when a breeder selects a less than healthy animal that has a very nice tail for example and starts a line with it. Realistically the breeder should remove the animal from the breeding program as soon as it is apparent that it is deformed/ill/'sick'/less than healthy. Ideally all of its progeny should be removed from the breeding program to eliminate all chance of the problem.

Most breeders bar large commercial breeders will not have the amount of animals available to them to be able to cull anything let alone a whole line of animals. For example a recessive problem for blindness occurs in hatchlings the parents should be removed as well potentially all of the parents siblings and grandparents this is in an attempt to remove the problem genetics.

Inbreeding is not the problem but how the inbreeding is done by many. Not by choice necessarily but due to resources available.

The locality genepool will reduce regardless of sibling breeding as there is only a number of locality animals. This doesn't mean that they are going to be sickly and ill ten years from now but breeders should cull deformed animals at least to ensure any (not saying there is any ) recessive problems remain recessive.

 

[snakegal]

LOL sorry to get technical here but I was told by a very well known and large breeder that snakes are different to mammals due to the way they disperse throughout their habitats. They tend to be found in clumps where there may be numerous individuals in a certain area of habitat that is ideal (eg along a creek). So the localised populations are clumped in these areas as offspring also tend to stay around. Then there may be some distance from there to where another population is located.

This also supports the fact that one species can have so many phenotypic variations (eg various colours and patternings), as there is spatial separation of individuals allowing this phenotypic variation. If they were to breed then you would get merging of the phenotypes (eg all jungles or diamonds would look similar).

If the separation of local populations is true, it seems they can survive with limited genetic variation, as due to random factors it's unlikely siblings will be mating over many generations and you will predominantly most likely get some breeding from snakes of different genotypes interspersed with in-breeding.

However where does this leave the integrade variations? Are they just exceptions where ideal habitats range over long distances and therefore these local populations interbreed producing phenotypic morphs?

Any ideas/thoughts anyone? I'm trying to suss out whether this local population separation is the case, in which a bit in-breeding is what occurs naturally.

FYI definitions:
Genotype= the genetic makeup of an individual (eg. genes the individuals carry)
Phenotype= the physical and physiological traits of an individual resulting from genotype (eg. diamonds may range from almost black to high yellow - this is genotypic variation manifesdting in phenotypic variation)

 

[Glimmerman]

do pythons naturally interbreed, (incestually I mean) in the wild? Very few animal species reproduce incestually.

If a mother disowns their young and shows no parental gestures or traits and these young 2-4yrs down the track come of age to breed, Do they ask if they are related? :wink: I cant see how a region with these species can survive without interbreeding, especially in smaller areas.

The only thing I disagree with in inbreeding in our collections, is when, a clutch is born with obvious defects, then this clutch is sold off and those same parents are put back into mating next season. Now that IMO is just WRONG :evil:

 

[munkee]

Glimmerman you are bang on the money!! That is the danger of inbreeding. People who continue to breed less than healthy animals and sell off the less than healthy animals. Breeders should cull sick animals to keep rest of the genepool healthier.

In the wild if siblings survive and reproduce, evolution wise they have been doing something right (staying alive ) the siblings would potentially reinforce the trait that helped them survive. Any sickly animals would die still.

To sum up Charles Darwin's arguement "evolution is random mutations with non-random selection".

 

[JungleRob]

I couldnt agree more boa.
90% of captive black and gold jungles all came from the same line.

Think about how many adds you see for sale quoting '' Krauss'' line black and gold jungles. That line started years ago, and its producing better animals all the time
nick[/quote]

LOL...did you know 47% of statistics are made up on the spot? :wink:

Nick, I've heard something similar re: B&G Jungles. Most of the captive bred jungles come from about 12 animals originally taken out of the wild however many years back. Can anyone let me know how much truth there is in this?

I don't agree that inbreeding is right at all. Even if inbreeding for 2 or generations was ok, how would you be 100% sure you weren't getting a hatchling that was 4th generation inbred already?

Interesting thread and comments.

 

[Retic]

I would imagine a great many Jungles would have been taken from the wild over the years so I doubt the majority would have come from 12 or 20 or however many were taken originally.
It is imposible to know if a hatchling you are purchasing is 1st generation or 5 generation line bred.

 

[Australis]

Its not impossible to obtain a hatching and know how many generations it has been line bred :wink:

I would imagine a great many Jungles would have been taken from the wild over the years so I doubt the majority would have come from 12 or 20 or however many were taken originally.
It is imposible to know if a hatchling you are purchasing is 1st generation or 5 generation line bred.

 

[Retic]

Yes you are right but legally it is hard but easier with the wild caught stuff on the market now.

Its not impossible to obtain a hatching and know how many generations it has been line bred :wink:

I would imagine a great many Jungles would have been taken from the wild over the years so I doubt the majority would have come from 12 or 20 or however many were taken originally.
It is imposible to know if a hatchling you are purchasing is 1st generation or 5 generation line bred.

 

[Magpie]

Its not impossible to obtain a hatching and know how many generations it has been line bred

Of course not, but does the breeder know if it's parents were related? Unless they were WC from totally diferent localities... no. Two WC animals from the same locality are almost certainly closely related, it's just a question of how closely.

 

[Glimmerman]

It is imposible to know if a hatchling you are purchasing is 1st generation or 5 generation line bred.

Even if it has been taken from the wild!!!!

I would imagine a great many Jungles would have been taken from the wild over the years

Yes but it's a Krauss line :lol: that makes 21

 

[Australis]

Its not impossible to obtain a hatching and know how many generations it has been line bred

Of course not, but does the breeder know if it's parents were related? Unless they were WC from totally diferent localities... no. Two WC animals from the same locality are almost certainly closely related, it's just a question of how closely.

Of course locality pure animals have a high chance of being related.

I was just trying to saying you can get captive bred animals and know how many generations they have been line bred.

Matt