Is it bad to buy brother and sister. Same clutch.

[Glimmerman]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. It is good to see people are being civilised and putting valid points and opinions across. I'm glad it hasn't turned nasty like a few of the other heated debates.

I don't foresee a great linebreeding defect issues, if, as some members have already mentioned, protective and responsible measures are taken into practice. That is, if your offspring hatch and defects and severe mutation (kinked spines etc) have occured - you no longer breed those parents and either cull or keep (without breeding) the offspring.

This is JMO but the flame suite is on (safety precaution) :lol:

There's a well known breeder in Sydney, a member of this site, that last season advertised 8th - 9th Generation Blonde Macs. I would be interested in the data and information he has collected over the years.

 

[junglemad]

These BTS have for the last 50+ years have had no option except to mate with a relative.

There have almost certainly been multiple introductions of BTS to Guam due to the large volume of military and cargo traffic.


Introduced Species Summary Project

"Mode(s) of Introduction: It is believed that the brown tree snake was introduced as a stowaway in cargo transported from the Admiralty Islands (near Papua New Guinea) by U.S. military ships during World War II. Based on their ability to hide in small, confined places, the brown tree snake may also have been dispersed by U.S. military planes, especially within plane wheel-wells."

It has got to be too cold to survive in an aircraft wheel well...didn't you see that movie with the frozen bloke?

 

[Retic]

And I would put money on the fact that he hasn't experienced any problems that can be put down to the line breeding.

I

There's a well known breeder in Sydney, a member of this site, that last season advertised 8th - 9th Generation Blonde Macs. I would be interested in the data and information he has collected over the years.

 

[Glimmerman]

And I would put money on the fact that he hasn't experienced any problems that can be put down to the line breeding.

I don't think he would have either if line breeding was done correctly.

People will say, " that because they are his stock he wouldn't come out and openly admit that his linebreeding is actually inbreeding and has had defects or negative mutation, as it will be a major loss to his income and reputation. " I have seen his stock, have offspring from him and know people with his stock. None of us have any visual hereditary problems thus far.

That is not to say that will not be, but after nine generations, if it was detremental to the gene pool - Would it have not popped up it ugly head by now???

 

[Nagraj]

It has got to be too cold to survive in an aircraft wheel well...didn't you see that movie with the frozen bloke?

Not that it's really relevant due to other viable methods of entry but ...


"Almost 60 years ago, a young Indonesian boy made world headlines with an amazing feat of escape and survival.

Bas Wie was only 12 years old when he stowed away in the undercarriage of a DC-3 aeroplane."

7:30 report

 

[schontier]

But their genetic diversity would be tiny.

again we all seem to be able to make supporting asumptions.

 

[Nagraj]

That is not to say that will not be, but after nine generations, if it was detremental to the gene pool - Would it have not popped up it ugly head by now???

What are you expecting to pop up? Do you think it will be neatly labelled with a genetic defect tag?

 

[Nagraj]

It has been established that linebreeding in reptiles doesn't cause any discernible health problems ...

I've finally found a link I have been searching for and it presents proof for quite the opposite in fact. This data should not be ruled out as relevant for the pre hatch mortality thread as well.


Inbreeding depression

"For example, a population of 40 adders (Vipera berus, shown at right) experienced inbreeding depression when farming activities in Sweden isolated them from other adder populations. Higher proportions of stillborn and deformed offspring were born in the isolated population than in the larger populations."

 

[Retic]

That's an interesting story, it doesn't unfortunately tell us how long the population has been isolated and for how many generations.
I thought this was interesting "The explanation for inbreeding depression lies in the evolutionary history of the population." I assume they are saying that if the population is isolated from new blood for say 20 generations which in the case of adders could be as little as 50 or 60 years then problems would no doubt occur.
No-one is saying they can be line bred indefinitely, that would be irresponsible and indeed naive.
I don't see it has much to do with the pre hatch thread as most of the animals involved would be 3 or 4 th generation at most and those involving WP carpets probably even less.

 

[Glimmerman]

[ Do you think it will be neatly labelled with a genetic defect tag?

Yeah with a big NEON flashing light coming through the egg. :wink:

I was refering to visual birth defects eg, kinked spine etc or a reduced birth survival rate.

 

[schontier]

OMG genetics are a science which, i beleive they(the educations institutions) touch on during high school. they teach the basic theories as espoused by Mendel. these are about things like dominant and resesive genetics. most people may have lost interest during their lecture or have forgotten these theories. IMO these theories are as applicable to reptiles as they are to plants, mammals fish etc. just because we start out with percieved perfect("pure") genetic specimens does not most liokely mean they do not have recessive genetic. i have to agree with NAGRAJ on the topic of vigor. but this is only a problem to line breeders when their birth rates fall thus they are forced to outcross. I have no arguments with line breeding as such. it is only when it is inferred as the answer to a species survival that i have a problem.

 

[snakegal]

I just want to point out I had my definition of phenotype wrong :roll:

Phenotype is the interaction of genes and the environment. Eg. if you had 2 genetically identical snakes, but one was brought up with a major lack of food and the other had plenty of food they would look different. The one with food would be a good size whereas the one with lack of food would be thin and short.

FYI definitions:
Genotype= the genetic makeup of an individual (eg. genes the individuals carry)
Phenotype= the physical and physiological traits of an individual resulting from genotype (eg. diamonds may range from almost black to high yellow - this is genotypic variation manifesdting in phenotypic variation)

 

[deathinfire]

Wow this is an awesome and interesting trend, i cant believe I havent looked at it until today

Well heres my little bit of input

Inbreeding in a wild population wouldn't be as harmful as inbreeding in a captive population, In a wild population of animals only the strongest and fittest would mature to reach breeding age, in contrast captive breed animals have a much higher survial rate than wild populations (optimal artifical incubation conditions, absence of natural predators etc.). Thus, animals that wouldnt of matured to breeding in the wild, via natural selection are able to become breeders. As a result of this, the inbreeding of captive animals may result in more genetic related defects in future captive populations.

Anyways this topic is actually way more complicated than I can clearly wrap my head around atm

 

[AustHerps]

Lets look at some FACTS -

FACT - Inbreeding in mammals and birds has GENETICALLY proven to be the cause of shorter lifespans, a lessening of vigour, a higher level of stillborns, higher perceptability to contract disease, higher possibility of being born with genetic problems.

FACT - no examples given so far speak of genetic evidence. Just what 'seems' to be happening.

Now, If we DON'T know for sure that it's ok to do, why should it be done?
True, several generations have been inbred with no APPARENT problems, but there is no proof to say it's safe.

So, If there's no proof either way... and we can look to see that EVERYWHERE ELSE inbreeding has occurred has led to problems, shouldn't we ere on the side of caution?

Some say it's ok provided new blood in introduced every now and then...

We can look at this two ways...
1. This is an admission that they don't know it's safe
2. "First generation inbred is ok. Second generation ok. Third generation ok... ... sixth generation, oh crap there's a clutch of disformed snakes." Um, I doubt it works this way... Firstly, my guess would be that in each generation, the problems get worse and worse, until finally, they are apparent to the breeder. Secondly, if the sixth generation is showing the deformities, doesn't this suggest that the fifth generation carried the poor genes (and the fourth generation to a lesser extent? as so on and so forth)? Bottom line, producing snakes that hold genes that make them more likely to produce unhealthy offspring is just as bad as producing the bad offspring itself.

Cheers,
Austy.

 

[JEZ]

I haven't bred pythons yet but I do plan on doing it eventually...I don't have much experience with regards to this topic but I'd like to put my 2cents in too...

When I do decide to bred my pythons I do plan on getting unrelated pythons (to the best of my ability). In fact I plan on getting a pair of diamonds very soon from unrelated clutches, so I can breed them later on down the track.

Just how I feel about the subject.

I tend to agree with Austy.

and we can look to see that EVERYWHERE ELSE inbreeding has occurred has led to problems, shouldn't we ere on the side of caution?

 

[soulweaver]

Sorry if this has been covered, as i only skimmed over the last few pages.

If you look at humans for example, there has been cases where inbreeding has lead to birth of offspring with defects. Some are things like 'retards' (no offence ment for using this word) and some complications like skin problems, and limbs not forming properly.

Not sure if anyone saw the program on T.V, but there was a show where two parents produced offspring that had skin defects and basically they had to wash and cover them self with lotion. If not, they would in fact die. Study was made into why, and it was discovered about 300 years ago the parents familys were infact related, but over time for what ever reason the familys split and they became 'strangers'. So the two people met, and carried the some of the same genes, causing birth defects.


In terms of snakes, line breeding will reduce the amount of eggs the female produces, meaning that new blood needs to be brought in to increase the clutch rate again.

as for morphs? this is three diffferent things. One is a cross, or hybrid. One is a selective gene that shows itself in that particular offspring, and one is cross breeding.

there are many books on this subject, which are quite interesting to read, that go into more depth. I would now but gotta actually work today

 

[Tanny]

I have been told by a number of breeders that reptiles don't have the same problems as mammals with inbreeding. As has been stated by others, it is only those breeders that don't cull unhealthy animals that create the problems.
My family was involved with breeding Arab horses for many years and our stallion had 22 crosses to a stallion that was regarded as the best in the world to his type. I have also known dog breeders that cross regularly with their own bloodline to get certain colour or temperament.

 

[Monkeyman]

If you breed too many generations saying "there don't appear to be any ill-side effects", by the time they do appear then it may be too late for that snakes' family line, as has been stated. Their parents' and their parents parents may all be carrying the same mutant gene, and outbreeding may only half solve the problem... you will then still half have the problem, while thinking you have a genetically diverse line. A little minor inbreeding may not do much damage short-term, or even long term. but for the future generations who inherit these problems, there will be nothing that can be done about it. (such as with pug dogs)

with those bts's there would have been many more snakes have made it into the country in the same way (it would have been cracked down on now with all the new customs laws and such, but i'm sure they couldn't ensure 100% success). And with even one snake making it to the island every ten years, the lines would be sufficiently diversified (If we're going by the "4th/5th generations are ok before you need to outbreed" theory)

IMO snakes (reptiles) because of their slow nature/body/metabolism needs they may evolve slower than other species of creature, and as a result of their not having to create their own energy, one of the side effects may be a slower evolution rate. (my supposition).

I have been told by a number of breeders that reptiles don't have the same problems as mammals with inbreeding. As has been stated by others, it is only those breeders that don't cull unhealthy animals that create the problems.

This is just the opinion of those breeders. They cannot know/prove that snakes don't have the same problems. The apparent defects may appear slower for any reason. e.g. my supposition of slower evolution or some other reason like inbreeding may occur more in wild snakes than other creatures, so they have developed a slower evolution capability to stop from inbreeding themselves to extinction.

Because of the 'cushy' lives of captive snakes even those that appear large and healthy may have been killed and weeded out in the wild because they might never have reached the size they did in captivity if forced to live they way they would have naturally. so the genes of these weaker(but normal appearing) snakes will be passed on to possibly parent weaker lines of snakes. Like i've said, this may not be so crucial short term. but when it happens an overt amount, then the future result could mean trouble.

Also. if everyone is of this opinion ("4th/5th generations are ok"), then what happens when we get the majority of breeders taking this up? There will be a whole lot of breeders breeding their 5th generation snakes with other breeders' 5th generation snakes... Increasing the likelyhood of the genetic defects becoming apparent.. the defects may not become visible until bred with another bloodline who has a similar genetic defect which will suddenly spring up. and even going back to previous generations won't fix it because they will all have the same genetic traits. The whole time this is occurring, they are beleiving they are outbreeding, but down the track, they will all be slightly inbreeding (which has been suggested has occurred in nature (leading to differences for localities and such)).

As said by someone before, best to err on the side of caution. There is no way of eradicating inbreeding of course, but minimising it cannot do any harm. Surely it's not too hard to buy snakes from different sources. Even if you cannot prove that they aren't related, the chances are greater (100% greater) of not having related snakes than if you by a Brother/Sister or Auntie/Uncle and breed them.

There are so many posts that were earlier on that i want to try to dispute and add my opinion to, but i can't think much after writing ALL this (it's like i just sat and wrote an english essay. (btw this thread is awesome, i'm thinking and having to bend my thoughts around these thoughts and opinions (or so it feels).(do i use brackets too much?))).

Teh Monkey

 

[Ramsayi]

Bottom line is people want really nice looking animals.High this,reduced that,freeky patterns etc etc.Take a guess as to how these traits are developed? Whatever the arguments for or against are comparisons shouldnt be made with mammals etc.Its like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[nickvelez]

Have you considered the leucistic snakes which have been produced? pure white animals with dark blue eyes. Leucistic ball pythons have been bred, along with leucistic texas ratsnakes. I know that there is a problem with some leucistic texas ratsnakes in that there may be a bug eyed appearance - the eye balls appearing to be too large. I was under the impression that this was related to inbreeding problems. The jaguar carpet pythons also seem to have health problems when inbred. the leucistic form of the jaguar carpet python appears to be fatal, although it has been suggested outbreeding would eventually allow 2 jaguars to produce a viable leucistic animal. I've seen pictures of ball python morphs which although totally freaky in appearance were also so lacking in 'vigour' that they died.
Outbreeding is always preferable IMO