Is it bad to buy brother and sister. Same clutch.

[nvenm8]

A good thread with a varied response of oppinions.
As has been suggested, alot of breeders line breed to bring out desired traits whether it's right or wrong....I guess it's up to the individual. The advice given to me when i first got into herps was; by all means line breed for a few generations to bring out the desired trait your after....Once you have it; out breed with an unrelated line to avoid the chances of defects etc.....

Wise words indicus.

 

[Zeus_the_beardie]

well is it ok for turtles to be brother and sister, and have baby turtles?
i know i have another thread but may aswell ask here

 

[schontier]

lets not fool ourselves int o thinking we are saving a species when we breed for when most people breed (whatever animal) we sell the progeny to people who want pets. To this end we strive for brighter colours, better temperament (tamer) Bolder patterns etc. in fact the same type of traits that we imbue into anything we domesticate. we are not then maintaining the species as they present in nature. true we do have an animal that is representive of its origins, but it is not the same. so while we can state we are saving a species or prolonging it, the truth is that we need to achieve this in the wild. its great to have pets that look like thier wild counterparts. but the true wild populations must be maintained. and this can only happen through diversity! not line breeding, remeber "natural selection" weeds out the freaks.

 

[abitfishy]

Ah, so I can marry my sister afterall.

 

[Australis]

remeber "natural selection" weeds out the freaks.

Natural selection, selects for freaks as much as it weeds them out.


Non line bred/inbred offspring produced in captivity, can be just as undesirable. in the context of natural selection.

For example:
Problem feeders, alot of which might not survive in the wild, does this mean they shouldnt be bred, because natural selection might have removed them from the gene pull in the wild.



Matt
(Edited for spelling)

 

[Nagraj]

True, natural selection would be weeding out the mutations that aren't selected for.

If I understand your statement correctly it's not really correct. Natural selection either selects 'against' any given trait or has no effect on it. As an example note the large colour variations within even a single clutch of wild bred snakes.


Line breeding in captivity progressively causes health problems but it has been an accepted practice in aviculture forever and vigour can be returned to the line with out-crossing once a trait has been established.

My own opposition to it (and this applies to cross species breeding as well) is due to the fact that almost every breeder will succumb to temptation to sell their halfway animals as pure to recoup some of the costs of keeping large numbers of animals.

 

[schontier]

I would say yes if we are trying to preserve a wild population. but i suppose we can get to the point and i can use the cheeta as an example where any progeny that can survive are better then non.
sorry for the freaks word. perhaps wide genetic variation would have been more politically correct.

 

[schontier]

sorry spell check has spoiled a generation
he he

 

[Retic]

It has been established that linebreeding in reptiles doesn't cause any discernible health problems, of course those against will no doubt argue that there could be hidden health problems we can't see. Of course if they never show themselves over the course of the animals life then I guess they are of little concern.

What exactly is a halfway animal in the context of line bred animals ? Line bred snakes would be pure so in what way are they 'halfway' ?

Line breeding in captivity progressively causes health problems but it has been an accepted practice in aviculture forever and vigour can be returned to the line with out-crossing once a trait has been established.

My own opposition to it (and this applies to cross species breeding as well) is due to the fact that almost every breeder will succumb to temptation to sell their halfway animals as pure to recoup some of the costs of keeping large numbers of animals.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Alot of people here that are FOR line breeding are also saying to out-cross to get new blood in after 4-5 generations & that line breeding is fine up untill 4th-5th generation.

It sounds to me like those claiming it is fine are also sceptical about future health issues lol, So my question is has anyone got any proof that inbreeding in reptiles has an effect on health? Or are we all posting information that we do not actually know facts about?

 

[schontier]

pure, is this pure in the arian way. or pure in the brother sister uncle way. (same thing?)
Where are te facts and figures on exactly what happens when reps are line bred, how many generations before the bad traits are undesireable. what are these BAD traits. please someone quote some scientific facts either way.

 

[Retic]

I think it would be safe to say that no-one has proof it IS harmful. I think people advocate out crossing after 4 or 5 generations to be on the safe side, it doesn't mean there is or isn't a problem.

 

[schontier]

why then play safe at all. and dogs cats rats flies moths in fact most other animals have major genetic problems when we inbreed them. the old double double up is when your line can come to an idiosyncratic end.

 

[Nagraj]

It has been established that linebreeding in reptiles doesn't cause any discernible health problems

It has? Evidence please.

Of course if they never show themselves over the course of the animals life then I guess they are of little concern.

They are certainly of concern for any subsequent generations.

What exactly is a halfway animal in the context of line bred animals ? Line bred snakes would be pure so in what way are they 'halfway' ?

They are halfway in that they are less vigorous than a more genetically diverse animal which hasn't been line bred.

 

[Nagraj]

So my question is has anyone got any proof that inbreeding in reptiles has an effect on health?

There is ample documented evidence that line breeding affects the vigour of many species of birds and animals and it is reasonable to assume that the same occurs in reptiles until proven otherwise.

 

[nvenm8]

http://www.mesc.usgs.gov/resources/education/bts/bts_home.asp

Reptiles aren’t people so get over the whole inbreeding thing for a moment and have a look at this site. These BTS have for the last 50+ years have had no option except to mate with a relative. Decide for yourself, I know where my vote goes.

 

[Retic]

By all means be against line breeding if you wish but show me evidence that line breeding actually DOES cause any health problems in REPTILES.

Please show me proof that a genetically diverse reptile is more vigorous than a line bred animal.

It has been established that linebreeding in reptiles doesn't cause any discernible health problems

It has? Evidence please.

Of course if they never show themselves over the course of the animals life then I guess they are of little concern.

They are certainly of concern for any subsequent generations.

What exactly is a halfway animal in the context of line bred animals ? Line bred snakes would be pure so in what way are they 'halfway' ?

They are halfway in that they are less vigorous than a more genetically diverse animal which hasn't been line bred.

 

[FAY]

There are only a few RSP in captivity ( and are under the impression, very few in the wild)......what will happen to them down the track??

 

[Nagraj]

These BTS have for the last 50+ years have had no option except to mate with a relative.

There have almost certainly been multiple introductions of BTS to Guam due to the large volume of military and cargo traffic.


Introduced Species Summary Project

"Mode(s) of Introduction: It is believed that the brown tree snake was introduced as a stowaway in cargo transported from the Admiralty Islands (near Papua New Guinea) by U.S. military ships during World War II. Based on their ability to hide in small, confined places, the brown tree snake may also have been dispersed by U.S. military planes, especially within plane wheel-wells."

 

[Retic]

But their genetic diversity would be tiny.