MoreliaMatt
Very Well-Known Member
fishbot said:
i was talking about your generic gold fish, not tropical that do need far more attention than reptiles
Reptiles in Petshops!!! (poll)
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i was talking about your generic gold fish, not tropical that do need far more attention than reptiles
cris said:
As I said in the other current thread on the same topic, there are some shop owners who try to do the right thing and I admire them. However, even with the very best of intentions, pet shops are bad because (among other problems):
There is no way for them to practice appropriate quarantine. It is simply not possible for pet shops to quarantine every new arrival for six to 12 months in a separate area with separate tools etc. Bringing animals in from a range of sources, keeping them together in a small area and having them handled by several reptile keepers is a recipe for disaster and it is no surprise that pet shop animals very frequently die soon after purchase and/or are found to have parasites. As the incubation times for many diseases are longer than the period typically taken to buy, display and sell a reptile, a pet shop has no way of guaranteeing that their animals are disease free. This is a massive down side to the seller, particularly their typically inexperienced clientele.
There is no escaping the fact that extra moves mean extra stress to reptiles. A breeder produces an animal and ideally, they pass them on to the new owner. The animal goes from the breeder, who obviously knows what he is doing (otherwise he wouldn't be able to breed!), to the new owner, who has an enclosure set up specifically for the animal being purchased. When a pet shop is involved, the animal goes from the breeder to a pet shop, where is put on display (how many times have we all heard that when you move a reptile you want to give it a few days to itself to settle in?) which can be very stressful. It is placed into an enclosure not designed specifically for the species, but into a cage designed to house a wide range of species and is therefore inferior for most or all of them.
The link between breeder and keeper is lost, which means that if the buyer wants first hand communication with the breeder, well, bad luck, that's not possible. The pet shop owner (let alone all their staff) can not possibly know as much about the history of the animal as the breeder. Okay, some people might not care about the origins of their animals, some people might not want to ask the breeder about how the babies from the same parents have been in terms of feeding/growth/colour changes/health issues etc of the animals most closely related to theirs, but it's nice to have the option of asking if something comes up. There are definate trends between different lines of animals (some pairs of Darwin Carpets consistently produce babies which prefer rats, others pairs produce babies which prefer mice, I have a pair of carpets which consistently produce babies which love mice as hatchlings, but suddenly refuse to eat them when they're about 70-80cm or six months old (whichever comes first)).
Not that it's a big problem, but the price in pet shops is usually much higher because of the higher costs faced by the pet shop owner.
Along with these (and other) problems which pet shop owners simply can not avoid, there are the problems we see in terms of horrific animal welfare issues, illegal poaching, giving out misinformation, selling to people who are inexperienced, the use of shops as a front for selling exotics (this is very common in at least three of Melbourne's 'reptile specialist shops') etc etc etc.
Reptiles are not products which should be bought and sold like ornaments in shops. They are living things which deserve respect. I have absolutely no problem with people making money from reptiles, but I don't think we should have a system which encourages people to purchase reptiles from one person with the intention of passing them on to another. This just isn't fair for the animal, it is treatment fit for inanimate merchandise. We should be bringing in systems which make it easier and quicker for the reptile to get from the breeder/previous owner to the new keeper, not bringing in a middle man.
waruikazi
Legendary
Sdaji you do have some very good points especially regarding quarantining of animals. But this is the case for all animals that are in pet shops, are you saying that there should be no pet shops at all or just in regards to reptiles?
I am primarily interested in reptiles and from experience I know that it's a very bad idea to allow them to be sold in shops. The six month rule should apply to everyone, everywhere.
As for mammals and birds, I don't know enough about them to deserve an opinion, but my guess is that they shouldn't be allowed in shops either. There are certainly some mammal and bird people who wish to ban their sale in shops.
Fish are a completely different story. It wouldn't be possible for many species of fish to be available to the consumer if not for shops, because so many of them are imported (yes, we still import a heap of fish for the pet trade). In the case of fish, it isn't a question of whether or not to sell in shops as shops are the only option for animals caught or farmed overseas, it is a question of whether or not we should allow importation or the keeping of exotic species. For some reason fish welfare is almost universally considered not to be an issue (no, I'm not saying I agree). I used to work in an aquarium and I spent a lot of time at the warehouses and quarantine facilities owned by the fish wholesalers. Interesting stuff! I made the move from fish to reptiles about 10-15 years ago and haven't looked back.
As for mammals and birds, I don't know enough about them to deserve an opinion, but my guess is that they shouldn't be allowed in shops either. There are certainly some mammal and bird people who wish to ban their sale in shops.
Fish are a completely different story. It wouldn't be possible for many species of fish to be available to the consumer if not for shops, because so many of them are imported (yes, we still import a heap of fish for the pet trade). In the case of fish, it isn't a question of whether or not to sell in shops as shops are the only option for animals caught or farmed overseas, it is a question of whether or not we should allow importation or the keeping of exotic species. For some reason fish welfare is almost universally considered not to be an issue (no, I'm not saying I agree). I used to work in an aquarium and I spent a lot of time at the warehouses and quarantine facilities owned by the fish wholesalers. Interesting stuff! I made the move from fish to reptiles about 10-15 years ago and haven't looked back.
This seems like it'll go on forever.
BUt, there have been some really good points. From most of the arguments, we should ban the private keeping of animals, coz no-one ca be trusted unless they undergo a 12 month training period with weekly examinations and bi-monthly psychological assemsment.
All current petshopowners and emplyees should be immediately incarcerated in a maximum security prison. All RKL's should immediately be voided, with all current holders having to undergo a similar examination and psych tests. And lets introduce a liscence system for children, coz theres too many poeple out there treating them badly, WHERE DOES IT END....
.. I think we should allow pet shops to sell reptiles, under a dealers lisence system, somewhat related to our own RKL system. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. And the sooner a snake or a lizard are as comon place pets as dogs and cats, the sooner we will see people come to their rescue just like with the fluffy ones. Our hobby is still in its infancy when compared to dog breeding, cat keeping an bird caring. It needs support or NPWS will just nix the whole lot, they don't even want us to keep what we have, my last discussion with them regarding the keeping of native animals is that they should be sen and not touched, left to become extinct without our intervention!
That may sound extreme, but no domesticated animal has ever become extinct. And i don't intend to sit by and watch our herps dissappear. Thats why i keep reptiles and native fish and why i'm trying to keep marsupials as pets, coz while we winge and carry on about this they are out there dying by there thousands getting closure to endangered and extinct every day.
Oh, and a ciuple have mentioned it allready, but, tropical fish are SO MUCH harder to keep than reptiles, at least i don't have to make sure the air is the right pH for herps.
I think we need a little more faith in the aussie pet industry, it's still got a long way to go, but we need to give it a chance, for the future.
BTW i do not/ have never worked for a/any pet selling establishment.
BUt, there have been some really good points. From most of the arguments, we should ban the private keeping of animals, coz no-one ca be trusted unless they undergo a 12 month training period with weekly examinations and bi-monthly psychological assemsment.
All current petshopowners and emplyees should be immediately incarcerated in a maximum security prison. All RKL's should immediately be voided, with all current holders having to undergo a similar examination and psych tests. And lets introduce a liscence system for children, coz theres too many poeple out there treating them badly, WHERE DOES IT END....
.. I think we should allow pet shops to sell reptiles, under a dealers lisence system, somewhat related to our own RKL system. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. And the sooner a snake or a lizard are as comon place pets as dogs and cats, the sooner we will see people come to their rescue just like with the fluffy ones. Our hobby is still in its infancy when compared to dog breeding, cat keeping an bird caring. It needs support or NPWS will just nix the whole lot, they don't even want us to keep what we have, my last discussion with them regarding the keeping of native animals is that they should be sen and not touched, left to become extinct without our intervention!
That may sound extreme, but no domesticated animal has ever become extinct. And i don't intend to sit by and watch our herps dissappear. Thats why i keep reptiles and native fish and why i'm trying to keep marsupials as pets, coz while we winge and carry on about this they are out there dying by there thousands getting closure to endangered and extinct every day.
Oh, and a ciuple have mentioned it allready, but, tropical fish are SO MUCH harder to keep than reptiles, at least i don't have to make sure the air is the right pH for herps.
I think we need a little more faith in the aussie pet industry, it's still got a long way to go, but we need to give it a chance, for the future.
BTW i do not/ have never worked for a/any pet selling establishment.
waruikazi
Legendary
Something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the responsibilities of the breeder who sell their stock to pet shops. I know that i will not sell any of my stock to anyone, be it pet shop or an individual, that i suspect will not care for these animals correctly. Why don't breeders hand over a couple of pamphlets on the care of the animals they are selling? That could then be passed on to the customer who will need the information when they start keeping reptiles.
I don't think you need much knowledge to breed, i certainly didn't when my first blueys had babies.
Having worked at a petshop (dodgey one) i don't think they should deal with birds either, thats a whole new story though.
waruikazi
Legendary
Has any one taken a good look at the % of the votes up top? Very close for and against... But it doesn't add up to 100% :shock:
scam7278
Very Well-Known Member
Yes 44% [ 38 ]
No 44% [ 38 ]
Undecided 10% [ 9 ]
where the other 2% LOL :lol:
No 44% [ 38 ]
Undecided 10% [ 9 ]
where the other 2% LOL :lol:
MoreliaMatt
Very Well-Known Member
theres 85 votes, 85 doesnt divide into 100 evenly, the forum shows only whole percentages, so its probably something like 44.4% 44.4% and whatever...
i know what i mean anyway! lol
i know what i mean anyway! lol
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