She finally laid!

[Jonno from ERD]

scorps im saying in the long run if they were as rare in captivity as he says his blood lines would be inbred when he sells them off those people will inbreed etc etc

say it was to happen with a md it wouldnt be as big as a issue because of the amount there are i dont think that there would be a chance of it happening over and over again

but with these that he has if they are so hard to get he cant get a non related male then wont the inbreeding keep happening?

were not having a go at him were trying to point him in the way of doing the right thing, if he can get a non related male that would be great then he could start a whole new colonie of non related ones etc

Why would it be a big deal?

 

[kupper]

where do you think they americans get such nice beardies from definantly is not from breeding new bloodlines with there previous stock , look at the corn snakes breeding , dad and daughter is usually done ... ummm... i dont know every day,

If there is so many of these in captivity then why dont you offer the boy a few of the differant bloodline instead of flaming him

this forum seems to be full of bloody computer nerds who in real life would not have the balls to say half the things they say on the forums to someones face

end of the day its an acheivement pat the kid on the back instead of discouraging him from sharing a job well done

 

[scorps]

Why would it be a big deal?

Exactly, Dont hold it to me but I remember reading somewhere someone did tests with some species of python and they where 10 generation inbred or something and still hadn't found any deformity's.

Why do you care so much missllammathuen if he does it any way?

Back to the albino's again, their going to constantly be inbred so do you suggest we stop breeding albinos? What about bhp's or spotteds or any reptile for that matter should line breeding stop?

 

[Snowman]

Please dont start an inbreeding debate, You can easily breed a snake to its sibling, where do you think nearly every single albino darwin come from, I know their are two lines now but about 90 percent are alby linage from sxr. Same with stripes, blondes, whites, they are are selective bred and continualy bred from each other, I think people get reptiles mixed up with mamales.

I don't really want to get off the subject.. but just a quick one
Albino's and the like are genetically weaker, they are unable to produce melanin and some people like to exploit this, which is fine with me... I've seen beardies that were inbreed and the offspring had no sense of balance and often ended up on their backs.. they were all eventually put down.... Genetics is interesting and there are certain rules to follow for all animals if you want good bloodlines.

 

[vadnappa]

scorps im saying in the long run if they were as rare in captivity as he says his blood lines would be inbred when he sells them off those people will inbreed etc etc

say it was to happen with a md it wouldnt be as big as a issue because of the amount there are i dont think that there would be a chance of it happening over and over again

but with these that he has if they are so hard to get he cant get a non related male then wont the inbreeding keep happening?

were not having a go at him were trying to point him in the way of doing the right thing, if he can get a non related male that would be great then he could start a whole new colonie of non related ones etc[/QUOTE

if you are worried about inbred reptiles dont get anything thats is uncommon. stick to your beardies and mds. cus theres no chance that a beardy or a python could be inbred, i mean look at the numbers of them available. and yes i am being sarcastic here

 

[Snowman]

:shock: I wonder if we had inbreed thylacines in captivity would we be upset or greatful?

 

[vadnappa]

:shock: I wonder if we had inbreed thylacines in captivity would we be upset or greatful?

spose it depends on whether they were bred for collectors or bred to replenish wild stock

 

[dragonman]

Interesting discussion. I remember many years ago (early 1990's) a currently very highly regarded non qualified herpetologist told me in that as far as he was aware virtually every Colletts snake in private collections at that time came from one gravid wild caught female. I

 

[vadnappa]

i have been told a similar story about central netted dragons, that captive population were established from animals all collected from a single sand dune. personally i think thats a putting alot of faith in the unscrupulous. there is alot of variety getting around in the netteds

 

[Snowman]

spose it depends on whether they were bred for collectors or bred to replenish wild stock

yes but now there is no wild stock... would it still be nice to see a genetically weaker specimen than none at all?

 

[Jonno from ERD]

Interesting discussion. I remember many years ago (early 1990's) a currently very highly regarded non qualified herpetologist told me in that as far as he was aware virtually every Colletts snake in private collections at that time came from one gravid wild caught female. I

G'day mate,

A lot (not all, obviously) of the Colletts in captivity stem from two pairs collected back in the day. No doubt the genetic diversity amongst Colletts is quite small.

 

[mcloughlin2]

Nothing wrong with breeding them back to their father for a generation or two. Its done all the time with no ill effects. Providing new blood is introduced down the line somewhere of course.

You just need to look into hypermelanistic blue tongues, hypomelanistic coastals and hypomelanistic bredli. They have been inbred for generations and generations with no problems at all.

 

[dragonman]

My advice on the Colletts snake was that it was one individual however I stand corrected however it does not really matter as even 2 pair does not exactly constitute a large gene pool, although I will grant you it is significantly better then one individual. I guess where I was going with my post on Colletts is that genetic diversity in captive held specimens is a matter for much conjecture and debate. Personally I maintain a large colony of D. australis in my collection and I have bred them many times over the last 5 years. I would almost bet money that the animals that W.T.Buy has just had produce a clutch of eggs are descended from the same original group as mine, which means their genetic diversity is compromised if we agree with some of the views expressed in this post. These animals are not common in private collections but there are a number of people that do have them. More important from a hobbyists point of view the number of captive held animals is growing, This is largely because these enthusiasts were most likely not even aware that the animals that they were breeding were most likely closely related or chose to disregard the moralistic arguements which are often presented with a religious zeal which I also find interesting

I have second and third generation individuals in my colony that are perfectly sound in form and behaviour. I also have no doubt that there would be many examples of animals held in private and public collections today that had a single pair or maybe trio of individuals as the starting group.

I think W.T.Buy should be appluaded for his efforts and success especially for one so young. I would be interested to know how you go with the clutch of eggs you are incubating, given the lenghty gestation time for the female. I have a couple of gravid females that have "held up" laying their eggs for well over 100 days now and another who just dropped a clutch of seven after 90 odd days, the eggs appear to be doing well.

 

[kupper]

so end of the day well done to WTBUY as i have said in a previous post , let me know when they ahtch as i would be interested in purchasing a few off you,

keep up the good work mate

 

[W.T.BUY]

Tommy round headed dragons aren't as rare as W.T.BUY states, they may be uncommon but get over yourself. Your not breeding something that nobody else has, finding another male won't take half as long as you think.

First of all, they be rarely advertised and commonly referred to but I know of several people out there with decent numbers doing well in captivity. If your going to breed decent numbers of a species that is uncommon, don't restrict your outgoing bloodline to inbred juveniles by selling the second generation hatchlings from a father dragon that is also its grandfather.

Dude im happy for you to send me the details of those people that have Large collections of Tommy round head dragons. But have you ever thought about special linage reptiles for example Rick walker red beardies and how many of them are getting around?

Dragon man what were your incubation times for tommy round head dragon eggs and were they any different for those of which the female held onto the eggs? Also as young are they a slow growing dragon?

 

[dragonman]

Incubation period for Tommy's is generally 45 - 50 days at an incubation tempreture of 29.8 degrees celsius. The period of incubation appears to be the same for eggs "held up" as for clutches laid within a normal gestation period. Your question about this is a good one though because I am starting to think that gestation periods for gravid females in the Diporiphora complex might actually be longer than what would normally be expected and compared to similar sized dragons from other genera.

I have also noticed a lack of follow up clutches from females that have produced a clutch even early in the season. In other words I am getting one clutch per female per season. I have also noticed a higher propensity for eggs to be dropped on the ground rather then deposited in to an excavated burrow amongst the females that seem to "hold up" their clutches.

The growth rates are fairly typical for a species of this size. You need to be careful about housing youngsters to make sure none get bullied or stressed. There will always be one or two individuals that will grow quicker then the others and there will usually always be a "runt"sometimes two or even more. This seems to happen even if you seperate the animals and house them individually although the risk of this occurring will be minimised and is why people pursue this method of raising youngsters. I think it is a natural thing that could even be genetically built into the developing embryos or perhaps triggered by an external event in their environment. It's all part of the "natural selection process" only the strong survive even in captive held specimens. Youngsters will be adults and ready to mate in 12 months. Life span in my collection is generally around 3 years although i have some individuals that are older at 4+ years.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I would not discourage you from your experiment with TDSD, your results if you can get the clutch to maturity will go a long way to answering your own question, "are Tommys TDSD"? I have personally never played around with tempretures trying to get one sex or another. I come from an era in the field where most of us were just grateful to be actually getting animals to mate and produce eggs. I know of young people that started their interest in herpetology in much the same way you have, who have gone on to become fully qualified and professional herpetologists. You need to keep good records of what you are doing and make sure that when you get a reasonably quantifiable result, you publish it.
There are several publications that would be more then happy to publish good quality research, particularly in a field that is relatively new and has little previous work done on it.

Keep up the good work and don't let the detractors and soothsayers deter you, they will always be there as they always have with anybody who has been or is at the cutting edge of their field of endeavour.

 

[W.T.BUY]

Update: i candled the eggs tonight. 5 have little embryos and blood vessels in them. but 2 have 2 much peat moss on the outside so i cant really see in them.

 

[W.T.BUY]

Just candled were 41 days in and it looks like i have 6 little dragons about to hatch. will post pics when they start hatching.

 

[daniel1234]

Congrats mate
Interesting where these threads lead......
(remember posts can read angry when they are not ment to be)