Terminology of Snakes

[Starter]

Hello, I wonder whether there is any "glossary" or "dictionary" that would explain all the terms which snake lovers (including you in this forum) use?
I stumbled across terms such as

herpetologist (which reminded me of lip herpes, those 'cold sores')

and I still don't understand the difference between "hibernate" and "brumate" ... etc.

And why is a Morelia Bredli in comparison to a Murray Darling Carpet Python supposed to be a different "species" and not just a different "variety" or a "breed", as they seem just as closely related like a German Shepherd and a Border Collie and could naturally mix and produce offspring together? I think there is something wrong in this common use of terminology and it should be fixed. (I am a professional linguist - just in case you are asking why I would care.)

I mean, the definition of "species" is this, isn't it:
[h=3]species plural of spe·cies (Noun)[/h]

style="margin-top: 20px"
|-
| Noun

|-
| style="padding: 0px" |

1. A group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.

|-

|-

That's what comes up first when you google "definition species".
I think someone should fix this and write a dictionary for herpatologists.

 

[thesilverbeast]

Herpetologists don't define what a species is or isn't. Thats up to taxonomic scientists. There are no 100% clear lines of what is a species.


Basically the reason that the darwin/diamond/jungle/costal pythons are all one "species" is because they all share territory with at least one other on the list at some stage. Hence there is the exchange of genes or interbreeding. They are however distinct enough to be called a subspecies as they ARE a bit different and do not always interbreed. but the point is that they can and do occasionally.

M. bredli are from a completely different part of the country with no geological overlap and hence are not capable of interbreeding because they don't come into contact naturally. Yes, we can do it in captivity but we can also breed a tiger and a lion, but that doesn't mean they're the same species either.

The idea of a species doesn't include humans interfering and breeding two different species together.



Dogs are all one species as they have been domesticated and selectively bred from one species in the beginning. Kind of like saying an albino darwin is to a wild type darwin python as what a dalmation is to a golden retriever. both are examples of genetic traits within one species.

 

[thesilverbeast]

To add -

That definition of a species is the most basic, layperson definition. Suitable for most basic questions like is a dog the same species as a cat?

For your question you need to goodle a bit further into the zoological classification of a species. With reference to something like
"A species is defined as a population of animals that are separated by distinct geographical barriers from others and are capable of interbreeding and gene exchange"

Very basic still, but if you research a bit further on google you will find your answers.

 

[saximus]

I was really interested in this concept a while ago and, when I asked on here, I found that it is really quite difficult to get a "good" answer because nature doesn't fit into neat little boxes the way we humans would like it to. I like the Dawkins definition which is basically what Silver Beast explained. This is a quote from him:
"...a group whose members breed with each other under natural conditions — in the wild. It doesn't count if they breed only in zoos..."

So the Morelia examples are separate species because of geographic boundaries, like SB said. The interesting thing with them though is also that most people assume inter-specific hybrids are infertile but this isn't the case with something like a M. spilota x M. bredli

 

[andynic07]

I have seen a Bredli Jag advertised which proves that Spilota and Bredli can breed even if not in the wild.

 

[thesilverbeast]

Andynic07, many things can breed together. That was never a question about species... people have crossed heaps of things from water pythons with bredli, carpet pythons to ball pythons, horses to donkeys (to create a mule), and tigers to lions etc.

Many different species can breed, but most of the time the offspring are infertile. But we are discussing what makes something a species to which the definitions are that they must naturally come into contact and be able to breed.

The interesting thing with them though is also that most people assume inter-specific hybrids are infertile but this isn't the case with something like a M. spilota x M. bredli

Heh yeah I was hoping people would overlook that. Its a quite uncommon thing, as most proper hybrids are infertile. However the morelia's are so close that they can breed fine, its just that they won't naturally!





The reason that its so grey is because each different species is at a different point of its evolutionary journey. So for now, the darwins/jungles/coastals/diamonds may be able to breed. but if humans didn't exist, perhaps in 10,000 years darwins will have been cut off and therefore evolved to become their own species. There's no definitive rules with taxonomy. Even now things are constantly being changed as our definitions of "Species" changes.

 

[Bluetongue1]

You picked the wrong term for starters, starter. Species is a theoretical concept unto itself. It is also a level within the artificially imposed organisational schema for classifying all living things and which requires practical decisions to be made about these organisms found in nature.

The first problem is that the basic theoretical concept does not actually fit all of the existing arrangements in nature. Secondly, nature does not always do the right thing and you can get different species breeding under different conditions. This is because the definition is designed to delineate simple end points and not to cope with a complex process of on-going transition.

The concept of species is also a dynamic one (based on breeding in nature) which has long been a source of angst as observation and therefore confirmation of breeding or not breeding is either impractical or intractable. How do you tell if two populations separated by whatever kilometres would naturally breed? To overcome these problems in practice, taxonomists have long depended on similarity in physical attributes to determine species. Which features were used and the relative importance put on them has depended a lot on the individual taxonomist. As a result, some groups have undergone considerable taxonomic revision each time a new taxonomist came on the scene.

The advent of electrophoresis techniques with DNA heralded a new era in taxonomy. Around the same time the “species complex” concept was introduced to address some of the problems. DNA technology has become highly affordable and therefore accessible like never before. It shows the inherited material and is representative of breeding and the degree of relatedness between organisms. It is slow, tedious and time-consuming and so has not displaced physical attributes in taxonomy. It also requires a degree of interpretation and so is not problem free.

This is why “species” is not a good word to start with.

Most of the technical terms applicable to herpetology could probably be sourced from the Dictionary of Zoology (Oxford Paperback Edition), which is around $20.

These two, neither of which I have seen, are hardcover and a bit above $100 I think...

Elsevier's Dictionary of Herpetological and Related Terminology
by D.C. Wareham
Publisher: Elsevier Science
Date: 2005-05-31
ISBN-10: 0444518630
ISBN-13: 9780444518637

Dictionary of Herpetology
by Harvey B. Lillywhite
Orig. Ed. 2008 384 pp.
ISBN 978-1-57524-023-7

A small net freebie...

Glossary of Useful Herpetological Terms
Glossary

It is not really the definition of species which has changed but how that definition is being applied using new technology.

 

[Starter]

Wow! Thank you a lot, Bluetongue, for this comprehensive answer which will satisfy every questioning academic mind. Much appreciated! It covers all the information I needed and wanted, and in my notification email even the glossary link came up properly. Here it is for other readers (just delete the spaces): fl.biology. usgs.gov /herps/ Glossary/glossary .html