the JAG/RPM morph neurological issues.

[buck]

Hey guys, sorry it's been a long day and have only just got on to find further comments on this neuro debate which in-turn has been a really good read so far...

What I meant The_S_Word and giggle was more along the lines that breeders such as myself and the ones mentioned along with CarpetPythons.com.au and Jungle Freak that have made some valid points in this thread, are placing guarantees on their animals that they have not showed any signs of neuro symptons from the time of birth to months later when the hatching has fully developed and fed on it's own for x amount of months before being offered for sale (for those mentioned above or earlier, please correct me if i'm wrong).

Now if we forget the Jag or RPM for just a moment and think of a normal python, for arguments sake a jungle python, the same above is offered as a guarantee from good breeders on the health of the Jungle hatchie before being sold, this also goes with every breed of python (jags excluded). Of course a reputable breeder is not going to hand over this little Jungle that has been showing some signs of illness in fear of losing his or her good name in this industry, but more importantly the health of the snake being compromised even further by handing over the animal to someone that maybe inexperienced in caring for it further should the problem get worse. The same is said for any jags or rpms that are sold, we are handing over the hatchie to you and guaranting it's health to be 100% at the point of sale. But just like the Jungle, who says that the jungle won't show some sort of illness 12 months, 3 years or even 10 years down the track? I'm sure a lot of breeders will agree that they have bought a perfectly good snake at some point in their years of being in the hobby from a reputable breeder and some years later, the snake has gotten sick for what ever reason. That is the risk you take with any animal you purchase, as heart drenching it is and it has happened to me before, I don't go running back years later to the breeder yelling 'REFUND'...

Other than this, I hope this thread keeps going and we can exchange some mature, constructive comments and ideas in helping this popular morph become even bigger, better and healthier in Australia for new and existing enthusiasts alike.

How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here.

I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene.

People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

And when you see a pretty one in the flesh it will make up your mind for you.

 

[buck]

The fact is that there is nothing we could say that would make you change your mind.
I haven't even made my mind up yet. Just trying to get the facts out there

You are of the opinion and many others are of the opinion; that all the keepers that bought jags are only in it to make money! You also believe that we have zero interest in the good health of the animals in question? We love our Jags more than any of our other snakes, regardless of the fact that they might end up Stupid. We realise that these animals could stay in our collection for the next 20 years and we are ok with that! Along with another couple of hundred or so. We are fully commited to all our animals welfare over the long haul, we dont flog them off when they are worth nothing or when they get too old to breed. They grow old and die in our care! After all, they offered us their life for our pleasure.
That's a bit bold telling me what my opinion is, isn't it? I don't recall once saying that Jag breeders are just trying to make money. All I have ever said is the truth needs to be aired.

I find that the people who make the loudest noise are usually the ones that have never owned anything rare or valuable in their lives. They can not seem to grasp the concept of an investment and never will.
It would seem that you are partial to bold sweeping statements..... How on earth would you know what I or any one else has as assetts in their life???

They could also never make any contribution to the hobby as that would mean that they would have to actually respect somebody elses opinion and step out of their comfort zone. They can also never grow as a keeper as all they have to offer is their big fat opinion. Everybody else is wrong according to them!!
deleted

How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on.
I say that because non, with the exception of Roger, of the Jag breeders or future breeders will acknowledge the facts from OS and whenever they get brought up "It's been done to death"

As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!!
I 100% agree with you here - as long as the correct information is given or made available. All of the talk of refunds etc are smoke screens IMO and won't last beyond this season.

They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money.
Not sure if they are the perfect snakes, probably far from it, but they do look nice. All of the other stuff is just crystal ball stuff. Who really knows how they would go in the wild. Also their value won't last forever.

Designer snakes will also cause a decline in poaching of wild stock as they frankly look better than anything you could collect out of the bush.
Sorry don't agree with this statement. Personally I believe in the whole beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing. Some love the look of them some don't but that's your opinion so thats cool.

Sorry for the rant and rave, this topic of breeders being in it for the money has just become laughable!!!
Again I don't remember seeing anyone talking about being in it for the money besides yourself. Most of what I have seen are concerns about the neuro issues and people being aware of the real stats regarding that.

.

 

[PimmsPythons]

How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here.

I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene.

People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags.

I had similar thoughts before i bought mine a couple years ago, but now i know it is pretty much a non-issue in almost all cases.mountain out of a mole hill.

as i stated earlier,no one is blowing up about the ethological issue of owning diamonds because they have a big chance of delevoping DPS that leads to a painful, bone breaking and neurological death.i personally know,losing 2 adults at around 7 - 8 years of age and its very sad to watch.
At least the little neuro problem in jags doesn't kill them.Its just tiny hiccup in their system that doesn't effect their way of life.it is a very small percentage of jags that end up with a major neuro issue and i would suggest that there is alot higher percentage of diamonds will surcome to DPS than jags to serious neuro issues.

So if your happy to purchase a diamond ,knowing that if it isn't kept correctly it will die a painful death in 7-10 years,then owning a jag is no problem.

My doubts i had before i purchased my jag have been quashed .she is a joy to own and has plenty of personallity and every time i walk past her cage i have those big silver eyes staring at me hoping for a feed,she is a hungry gutted pig.

cheers
simon

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.

From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.

Here it is, are you too lazy to make the effort to go and look what you said? Who I keep company with is my own business and I don't really think it has any relevance when it comes to Jags. I can assure you that the company that I keep, has done more good for the reptile hobby and contributed more than the majority on this forum including you! [deleted]

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

"I say that because non, with the exception of Roger, of the Jag breeders or future breeders will acknowledge the facts from OS and whenever they get brought up "It's been done to death"

How do you come to this conclusion? The facts are that none of all our jags have shown Any neuro issues! I might even fly you down from wherever you are to let you have a look. Why would I come on a forum and post that my Jags might have neuro issues when I have not seen or heard of it in any of our lines? Neither has anybody else that own these lines. We have not bred jags yet, but will inform people about the possible neuro issues once we do.

You keep going on about these issues? There is only one issue and that is that people have to be honest. Neither you nor anybody else can decide the honesty of breeders.

 

[buck]

Here it is, are you too lazy to make the effort to go and look what you said? Who I keep company with is my own business and I don't really think it has any relevance when it comes to Jags. I can assure you that the company that I keep, has done more good for the reptile hobby and contributed more than the majority on this forum including you! [deleted]

I am more than aware of what I said. There is a difference between investing money in something and only being involved in something for money.
Maybe it isn't a case so much of my laziness to check what I previously said as it is your inability to understand the difference between what I said and what you percieved that I have said.
As far as discussing the other stuff.... I would be more than happy to but not on this forum. We both know it would be deleted as will most likely most of this. I can't believe that you believe you have the pull here for it not to be. moderatators decide what gets deleted not members - C
Unfortunately this thread is going down hill. I apologise for my part in that!!!!!

 

[buck]

"I say that because non, with the exception of Roger, of the Jag breeders or future breeders will acknowledge the facts from OS and whenever they get brought up "It's been done to death"

How do you come to this conclusion? The facts are that none of all our jags have shown Any neuro issues! I might even fly you down from wherever you are to let you have a look. Why would I come on a forum and post that my Jags might have neuro issues when I have not seen or heard of it in any of our lines? Neither has anybody else that own these lines. We have not bred jags yet, but will inform people about the possible neuro issues once we do.

You keep going on about these issues? There is only one issue and that is that people have to be honest. Neither you nor anybody else can decide the honesty of breeders.

Read the thread in the link posted earlier in this thread. That is how I come to the conclusion.

So your lines aren't the same as the ones from SOuthernX?? Are you aware that they had a Jag show signs? I believe there has been two others.

I agree that no one bar the breeder him/herselves can decide the honesty of breeders. As stated earlier I applaud you for your honesty in your refund policy. I also think breeders have to be honest with themselves too. Not sure how a breeder can stare the facts from OS in the face and say it won't happen to them. That is all.

I'm not sure if they can or not but let's say doctors were able to identify the gene responsible for Parkinsons. If I were told that I had that gene, even though I might not show signs at present, I would have to believe that at some point it is going to develop.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

We have not had to discuss the neuro issue with customers as we have not bred them yet! The forum has not allowed for neuro discussions to take place on here as it involves the patron of the site. There are other factors involved in the disclosure of the neuro issues to date. You have to bear this in mind Buck.

 

[Elite_Reptiles]

How can you say the hatchie is 100% healthy at the time of sale when it is carrying a gene that is known to produce neuro problems? I do believe that I answered this question more then once in the 2nd and 3rd paragraph. I think it is very misleading to say that to a potential buyer. Why couldn't you just be upfront and let them know that it hasn't shown any signs yet, but statistically it more than likely will at some point in it's life? Again, do your research on the animal in question and on reputible breeders that will tell you there is a possibility it could happen later in life. The link posted earlier in this thread has some posts from keepers in the US who have been working with these animals for far longer than anyone over here. I would be more inclined to listen to their stats then from the small sample over here. That is in the US, this is Australia, we are approaching this new morph from a completely different angle and learning from them so as to avoid making the same mistakes

I think this is the problem we are having here at the moment. There has been so much dishonesty to begin with that most people don't understand that the "RPM's" are even Jags, let alone the health issues that come with the morph. We are on here being open aren't we, I don't see how any of us are being dishonest. Breeders telling people they are hopeful of breeding the neuro gene out are kidding themselves. When have we ever mentioned this? As stated earlier in this thread, these animals have been crossed over everything thousands of times overseas and they still can't seperate the neuro gene from the Jag gene. We are fully aware of this.

People need to be made aware of the ugly side to this beautiful morph. Only then can informed decisions be made. And still then some might not be able to make up their mind. Unfortunately this is where I fit in. I have a ripper RP jungle girl and I keep thinking what she would produce with a nice Jag. Unfortunately I am struggling getting my head around the ethical/moral side of Jags. As CarpetPythons.com.au has already mentioned, when you see them in the flesh and you have done your research on both animal and breeder, I'm sure you will be confident enough in making your own decision

I had similar thoughts before i bought mine a couple years ago, but now i know it is pretty much a non-issue in almost all cases.mountain out of a mole hill.

as i stated earlier,no one is blowing up about the ethological issue of owning diamonds because they have a big chance of delevoping DPS that leads to a painful, bone breaking and neurological death.i personally know,losing 2 adults at around 7 - 8 years of age and its very sad to watch.
At least the little neuro problem in jags doesn't kill them.Its just tiny hiccup in their system that doesn't effect their way of life.it is a very small percentage of jags that end up with a major neuro issue and i would suggest that there is alot higher percentage of diamonds will surcome to DPS than jags to serious neuro issues.

So if your happy to purchase a diamond ,knowing that if it isn't kept correctly it will die a painful death in 7-10 years,then owning a jag is no problem.

My doubts i had before i purchased my jag have been quashed .she is a joy to own and has plenty of personallity and every time i walk past her cage i have those big silver eyes staring at me hoping for a feed,she is a hungry gutted pig.

cheers
simon

Well said and totally agree Simon. I've noticed that still know one has admitted owning a Diamond and wether they have fallen victim to DPS? I for one have lost 2 Diamonds to DPS, and was fully aware of this cripling disease before purchasing. Not only did it break my heart to see them go through this, but thousands of dollars later in vet bills...they still died. Not once did I blame the breeders, nor did I ask for any refund as I was the only responsible one that decided on the purchase in the first place knowing fully well that this was a possibility. But no amount of money even comes to mind when it comes to the amount of joy I got from owing them, and would do it all over again in a heart beat. This is part and parcel of owning such a rare and beautiful animal, there is always a risk involved of that animal getting sick, or even dying.

Look at some fish or bird owners, they spend thousands of dollars on one particular breed that maybe rare in Australia and a few days, months or even years later it dies on them for all different types of reasons. But yet they go and purchase another one simply for their love of this animal and want to see it do well in captivity and for others to enjoy the same appreciation.

Read the thread in the link posted earlier in this thread. That is how I come to the conclusion.

So your lines aren't the same as the ones from SOuthernX?? Are you aware that they had a Jag show signs? I believe there has been two others. If you were to say thousands or even hundreds of cases in Australia, then it would be warranted to have something to worry about, but two???

I agree that no one bar the breeder him/herselves can decide the honesty of breeders. As stated earlier I applaud you for your honesty in your refund policy. What more do you want us to do??? I also think breeders have to be honest with themselves too. Not sure how a breeder can stare the facts from OS in the face and say it won't happen to them. I don't believe we said it wouldn't it, but we are trying our best to work around these problems so it doesn't get out of control like the US/UK etc. That is all.

I'm not sure if they can or not but let's say doctors were able to identify the gene responsible for Parkinsons. If I were told that I had that gene, even though I might not show signs at present, I would have to believe that at some point it is going to develop. Then we would have to consider putting you down...I'm kidding mate

 

[ihaveherps]

Is Colin on holidays? no simon.. are you?

Its good to see the truth finally getting out there, I dont see why there had to be smoke and mirrors for so long, should have been on the table from the get go and as such it has led to a knee-jerk reaction. Though that is entirely the fault of those who perpetuated the mis-information for so long to begin with.

Alot of correct info is finally surfacing now, and from those involved with the animals themselves. This is commendable, even though it is long over-due. In the past, there has been a minority of Jag keepers with the plums to go against the flow and correct some of the mis-information, maybe not to the explicit lenghts that is now being shown.... though this thread, and others elsewhere, have bought a few new people to the surface who are claiming to be moral pillars of the Jag community, though were silent, if not dismissive of the reality of the situation until now, which is very transparent.

Anyway, not too long ago, some headway was made with alot of the open Jag keepers in a thread. Now Im not necessarily anti-jag, nor pro either, Im a fence sitter who most likely will never be a part of the jag scene, though the thorn in my side has been the smoke and mirrors and dis-information.

Seeing as there is now clutches in incubators, this undoubtedly being the yr that these animals really penetrate the hobby in a major way... as a hobby, what is the community consensus going to be, can we as a group all agree on some standards for lack of a better word. Jags wont appeal to everyone, but can the community agree on standards for tagging the Jag siblings, or are supposed coastal jag sibs to be called pure coastals (I hope not).... these kinds of issues need to be nutted out from the beginning, before the jag landscape turns into the wild west.

We have now come to parity with the international community regarding the understanding of the
neuro issues... agreeing all Jags have neuro conditions, 80% displaying the condition physically at some time in their lives, though of that 80% they cover a spectrum, from the slightest of co-ordination malfunction ie. not the best aim striking at feed items, to the minority of full blown cases which are the reptilian incarnation of Nadia Comaneci. We now have that nailled down, but while the Irons hot, lets see how much of the full spectrum of issues these jags have the possibility of casting across the morelia niche of the hobby can be addressed and agreed upon...

Cheers,
Herpes

 

[Jay84]

LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.
Not at all...... it just so happens there are alot of eyes on this thread and so when you made an error there were a few people reading at the same time who corrected you. Not ''jumped'' on your comment as if you should know better.

Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.

It sounds as if you think people are ganging up on you.?

If i made an error then i would appreciate being corrected. I dont think anyone was trying to belittle you.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Ihaveherps: All good and well these issues get nutted out on a forum, the problem will be with the keepers that do not venture onto the forums. We will be adding a page to our site that states all the information needed to make an educated decision about purchasing these animals. We will also add our terms and conditions. This should make the process of purchasing a jag as transparent as it could possibly be!

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.

"Neuro Jags"

This forum is really worth looking at & would awnser most questions for most people.
It certianly shed more light on the subject for me.
Cheers

 

[waruikazi]

It has been a while since i have become more than a little passionate about one of our threads. The topic of JAGs just about makes my blood boil.

Under each state and territories animal wlefare act keepers have a duty of care to their animals to ensure that they are free from pain and distress. JAGs have a genetic illness, that is simple fact. The gene is homo lethal! To knowingly breed an animal that WILL have a neorological disorder is dispicable. Then to go on and make money from that illness... I'm just about speechless!

Unfortunately i know the burden of proof is on me and others who disagree with breeding JAGs. Prove an animals is in distress and I know the rebuttles that breeders will spout, 'They eat, poop, breed etc, they can't be that distressed.'

On the first page there was the comment to buy from a reputable breeder. One, you can't breed out the JAG gene and still have a JAG. Two (without mentioning names, i don't want to break rule 14) one major supplier of RPM (JAGS) has sold these animals with full knowledge of the neuro issues, yet did not disclose the issues to the buyers.


Quote by Fay It is only someone's word that this was not disclosed to the customer.I find this hard to believe. No one has any proof otherwise.


Not to mention the dubious nature of how they turned up on our shores (anyone involved with JAGs in Australia, in my eyes, is guilty of aid and abeting the smuggling and trade of illegal wildlife). My interpretation of the laws and guidelines that inform our hobby, is breeding JAGs is tantamount to animal cruelty.

 

[Elite_Reptiles]

Ihaveherps: All good and well these issues get nutted out on a forum, the problem will be with the keepers that do not venture onto the forums. We will be adding a page to our site that states all the information needed to make an educated decision about purchasing these animals. We will also add our terms and conditions. This should make the process of purchasing a jag as transparent as it could possibly be!​

Good call, I will be doing the same

 

[FusionMorelia]

So next time a newbie posts"looking for pet snake"we should have a Jag as a perfect option?????

you can if you want, thats the awesome thing about opinions, you and i and everyone is entitled to one and i have been speaking to some jag/morph owners and from their experience they told me they had more probs with jungles than their jags
but people continually tell people to get jungles even tho their bitie flightie and easy to stress (told to me buy several jungle owners).
also he didnt say it was the perfect newbie pet, he said its a perfect pet. big difference there mate

 

[Elite_Reptiles]

Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...

Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!

 

[blakehose]

Did anyone see the ad on Herp Trader (033-103) RPM Coastal Carpet Python Morph for $2,500?...

Unfortunately there are a few out there, but these are the types you have to watch out for!

Saw that one Wayne - I found it entertaining.

 

[giggle]

I don't mean to upset... but it sounds more like a case of incomplete dominance rather than co-dominance. I may be further misunderstanding lol I know sometimes people simplify genetics to make it easier to understand but I find it harder to understand that way.
but your example sounded good I tend to ramble a bit as well

Co-dominant doesn't result in a blending of the two, it results in both alleles fighting for dominance, if that makes sense. For example, you may get a striped animal and a spotted animal and if co-dominant, you would get a spotted striped animal. Both phenotypes would be present. If the genes were incomplete dominant, you would get an animal with halfway between spots and stripes, with elongated spots or the like... the phenotype would be a blend
lol maybe colour is a better example, say you had a red flower and a white flower... and you bred them together and the alleles for both were co-dominant... you would end up with a flower with red and white spots. If red was incomplete dominant, you would end up with pink flowers instead Thankyou wikipedia for that example.
Co-dominance implies that the wild type is as dominant as the jag type. Whereas incomplete dominance allows a blending of the two... which makes more sense. Unless you are talking about jag not being co-dominant with the wild type, but being co-dominant with another morph? In which case that would make more sense.

if it were dom there would be no such thing as jags, homozygous and heterozygous animals would both be leucistic. Dont think of it as the jag gene, think of it as the leucism gene. Homozygous for it and the animal will be leucistic, het for the gene and it will show reduced pattern (jags) and lacking the gene (homozygous for wild type) will show normal colors and patterns(jag sibs) of course the sibs will look different to a normal coastal or jungle as most have jungle and coastal genes mixed in plus their sibs (jags) have been bred for pattern and color so that will also show itself of the sibs. Get what i'm sayin? I know half the time its probably a little difficult to get what i'm saying, i tend to start rambling and lose people lol