To cull or not to cull... that is the question...

[slim6y]

So we shouldnt have any farms? are you serious?

WHAT?!?! When did I say "we should not have any farms"?

I think what I said was written in reply to someone else who said we shouldn't have any farms...

christo said "The most sensible solution would be to get rid of the cattle, let the numbers of roos increase (as they easily do) and then eat them instead."

I was pointing out the fact that there is conservation practises that can help the continuation of roos, as well as using them as a food source etc... Never did I, nor would I, say that farming should be stopped!

But thanks for pointing that out

hehe... I'm used to you reading more cris... must be a late night for you

 

[cris]

WHAT?!?! When did I say "we should not have any farms"?

Yes, culling is humane in comparrison to starving, but it's the reason they became starving in the first place that's the problem!!!

I thought you were suggesting here that we should stop what causes overpopulation rather than cull, that means no farming. I have been know to misinterpret things occasionally

 

[slim6y]

I thought you were suggesting here that we should stop what causes overpopulation rather than cull, that means no farming. I have been know to misinterpret things occasionally

Awe cris, don't be so hard on yourself... It's way more than occasionally

Only kidding mate.. I wasn't worried about that - I guess when I re-read what i wrote it sounds like we should stop farming and all become tofu loving mung beans... But really i was suggesting we have environmental practices in place to utilise our natural resources and our exotic crops/livestock.... This will in turn, hopefully, remove the requirement for culling... But it takes some education and farmers to turn their way of thinking around. It has been mentioned in here before (this thread)... But right now I'm too tired to look for it...

 

[Mayo]

Quote :Ice Time
"but seriously culls are a stupid"

So we shouldn't cull Cane toads, wild pigs, wild goats, Camels etc killing these thing's is still culling. We cull to keep things in check. Yes many of these problems were caused by man but generations ago, and they didn't know any better at the time. Now we have to fix these problems, and to maintain some sort of balance that means a cull. It's the uneducated bleeding hearts that yell and scream that have no idea. Yes I would like to see Roo on the menu more often but as I understand it, it can't legaly or easily be farmed. Using stat's that have nothing to do with the arguement is not going to help your arguement either.

 

[slim6y]

Mayo... pick one species there where you say "So we shouldn't cull...." and tell us which ones were native to Australia?

My original thoughts and reason to put this thread up is because there were calls to cull crocodile in FNQ... Because they were inhabitting the beaches (ironically they have for centuries, maybe even millions of years....). And kangaroos - which I note have been increasing in mubers in some areas, but severely decreasing in others. Some kangaroo species may even be borderline extinct - the worst part of this comment is I don't actually know where I heard that from, but it was a reputable source... Can be disregarded if you don't agree

I still don't agree in culling for the reasons we are specifying - By that very means we should be culling humans!

Culls may not be stupid, but they're the cheap and uneducated option to relieving the pressure of growing colonies of roo!

And even thinking now cheap may not be true... There's probably plastic fencing that is cheaper!!!

Does anyone in this country use 'unscalable' fences - I think i have asked this already... But surely there vould be paddocks of cattle etc that could be fenced off with unscalable fences. If we can keep deer in, I'm sure we can keep roo out???

 

[Mayo]

Slim, Ice Time made the comment that cull's and the people that do cull are stupid and uneducated, no none of those that I listed are native but do you disagree that those listed need to be culled completely from this country. In your first post you bought up Aussie Possums introduced to NZ. It is a lot easier to keep deer in, than keep a roo out, hense the problems the CSIRO had when they were doing there studies. Untill a better solution comes along I see no other practical way to keep things in check.

 

[cement]

Why don't we get rid of all the sugar cane. Acres and acres of land under something that isn't even food.........

 

[Mayo]

But it may soon be used as a renewable fuel for cars which makes more sense than petrolium based fuels

 

[rodentrancher]

Haven't read the whole thread, but who has decided what is the best thing to do??? Cheers Cheryl

 

[slim6y]

Yes Mayo, I agree, all of those animals you listed require controlling, as do possums in NZ (amongst many other creatures). All are pests.

However, I still find it difficult to believe that roos are so difficult to keep out!!! What makes them so tough to keep out?

I am asking this question in igronance - Can roo jump higher than deer?

If they could clear deer fences - then how, may I ask, do they keep them in captivity in zoos?

 

[cris]

However, I still find it difficult to believe that roos are so difficult to keep out!!! What makes them so tough to keep out?

They can jump most fences, and also go through them if they need to. Some fences are able to stop them while they are in perfect condition but they will find a damaged area pretty quick. It would cost millions if not close to billions to have roo proof fences around every farm and the roos would be much worse off for it.

IMO restrciting kangaroo movement would be highly detremental to them and could actually lead to them being wiped out or atleast threatened in some areas. Kangaroos need to be able to move around to get food and water.

 

[slim6y]

They can jump most fences, and also go through them if they need to. Some fences are able to stop them while they are in perfect condition but they will find a damaged area pretty quick. It would cost millions if not close to billions to have roo proof fences around every farm and the roos would be much worse off for it.

IMO restrciting kangaroo movement would be highly detremental to them and could actually lead to them being wiped out or atleast threatened in some areas. Kangaroos need to be able to move around to get food and water.

Once again, I must point out that roos are kept in capitivity in zoos.

Secondly, if they were kept out of paddocks, that also means they can be kept in paddocks and farmed... not to the detriment of roo populations!

I have a bit more to say on this matter - but I gotta do some real work

 

[slim6y]

to show I am unbiased I am posting a PM I got from Mayo...

"An average deer fence is 2.1m , and a Roo can jump that from a standing start. Roo fences need to be greater than 2.5m high, and 2.3m wide, and still many larger Roo's can jump them. Deer fencing per 5 acres $34,000, Roo fencing for 5 acres $104,000. Got the costing from a fencing centre, and the height's I no from building them. Would have posted it but work has a block that stop's us posting in thread columns."

So my question then is - how do we keep them so succesfully in zoos? That's a huge cost!

Added - Just heard from two South Africans that game fences may be over 3 metres high... They have elephant cabling! I bet it's expensive, but still should work.

Vermin fencing also works... With electric wires that stops them getting too close to the fence to jump. So I don't think it is impossible!

 

[IceTime]

Just to clarify... no I'm not referring to the cull of introduced species. Cull them all you like... Roos etc aren't introduced... so you have me there on that technicality.... Culling native animals is the problem. So far as native to the area goes...if farmers created the problem then tough really... they should find other deterrents or don't farm the area...unrealistic I know but someone has to fix the mistakes of the past. Considering many farms are owned by large corporations making huge profits... or generationally passed down then they should either have the money or ethical incentive to fix the problem. Just on a side note people lay waste to much more profitable land than a few native animals. Salination, erosion, live stock and wasting of water resources with irresponsible uncapped bores and flood irrigation have placed more farms against the wall... try working on that.

 

[IceTime]

Just to clarify... no I'm not referring to the cull of introduced species. Cull them all you like... Roos etc aren't introduced... so you have me there on that technicality.... Culling native animals is the problem. So far as native to the area goes...if farmers created the problem then tough really... they should find other deterrents or don't farm the area...unrealistic I know but someone has to fix the mistakes of the past. Considering many farms are owned by large corporations making huge profits... or generationally passed down then they should either have the money or ethical incentive to fix the problem. Just on a side note people lay waste to much more profitable land than a few native animals. Salination, erosion, live stock and wasting of water resources with irresponsible uncapped bores and flood irrigation have placed more farms against the wall... try working on that.

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

We arn't the only country to see the "need" to cull native animals.
In the uk they are talking about culling their badgers, read that here http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=40564&newsdate=28-Feb-2007

In Africa they cull elephants and elephant seals.
Monkeys in Singapore..to name a few

 

[cris]

Icetime i would suggest you read the thread especially Sdaji's post at the bttom of page 4 it sums up why its done fairly well.

i was goin to type a longer responce but i have said it all before at the start of the thread, it now seems this thread is going in circles.

 

[slim6y]

We arn't the only country to see the "need" to cull native animals.
In the uk they are talking about culling their badgers, read that here http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=40564&newsdate=28-Feb-2007

In Africa they cull elephants and elephant seals.
Monkeys in Singapore..to name a few

wow... very interesting! I would like to think that culling wasn't required... But - I don't want to go off topic and discuss TB etc.

What i would like to say is we live in a country blessed with some natural resources, not overly blessed with water but - some of the most diverse species of mammals and birds.

I admit I wouldn't want to see roos starving, and even some hardline conservationists/ecologists agreed that it was appalling to see the state of some roos that over populated an area.

But - even tho there maybe a requirement to kill roos, there are also answers around it... And I like what Sdaji has said, it's very relevant... but what i don't like hearing is "there's no other way!" Because that's just plain not true!

There are other ways.. some ridiculous, some not useful and others that could just do the trick!

One of my main questions was should we cull crocodiles because of their large numbers and their ability to colonise beaches where humans may swim...? Ok.. so 38 - 40 people have been killed by crocs in the last 200 odd years. That's not good

So I can't go swimming when there's a croc at the beach... but marine stingers are way worse here!

How much livestock is lost to crocs? Should farmers be able to kill crocs?

Unlike roos, are crocs starving? They do get diseases i know... but are there just too many of them?

I have loads to say, but as cris suggested this is an old thread that is going around in circles.. it has been rather openly discussed and considered that we share many different opinions amongst this group.

But perhaps it's time to let this thread be culled

 

[instarnett]

Im sorry but most people who live in suburbia do love roos and all the furry little creatures that the bush has but in the real world they can be a pest and have to be contolled to some degree

Dogs are good for that eh Oddie?

 

[IceTime]

Well that was fun...lets put it this way... I just attempted to post a detailed response verging on an essay...then my PC crashed... i'm not going to spend all that time repsonding again so I'll keep it short. Cris in respose I read through the post you suggested and can't really agree with much of what was said. The post points out that well all have an impact on the environment sure and we do but our current methods can be changed and money can be spent in better areas and on other things before culling. It is far from absurb (maybe a little idealisitic considering the attitude of some greedy people) to expect business to change its practices and certainly to even make up for mistakes of the past. Especially considering some of the farming giants huge profits and the other fact that many farms are passed down gererations. I would think this should give them the financial power and ethical motivation to change and improve from the past. This would benefit business and the environment. As I have maintained the culling of roos has nothing to do with protection of the environment and all to do with protecting money and hunting wildlife for money. Saying they are culled for their own health is a cop out, aimed at placating the anti-cull crowd. I'd rather nature take its action as sad as it may be.

Current kill quotas are placed at around the 7 million mark out of a population estimated at around 40 million. I acknowledge that these have not yet been met but whats stopping them? Only popularity of the product. The actual population number of kangaroos is also up for debate. Many of the figures come from the industry that has a vested gain from the kill, particularly the well touted comment that there are more roos now since white settlement. If the kangaroo meat and fur industry have its way these quotas can be easily met. Even if Roo farms are set up, if wild cull limits remain this high then whats stopping the new found industry from swallowing up the wild population, particularly if there is no real stigma attached to the game meat as opposed to the farmed product. What are people willing to accept? Is it okay to have Roos on the endangered or threatened species list... in line with many other australian species? Or how about even extinct from the wild...soon to be a tacky zoo pet or delicacy farmed in limited numbers to gain a top price for the taste of australia? Don't think it will happen? Tigers? anyone? Sure 40 Million today...what about in another 200 years? Doesnt matter right we wont be alive.

Anyway I could keep going endlessly and not only would I be repeating myself but also going in circles as others have mentioned....this has already turned into another essay, though only about half as long as my last and doesnt address Culling apart from Roos... or half of my other points...so I'll leave it at that anyone...you're right Slim6y cull this post quick! What have I done to kick it off again