Tongs debate!!

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Well if you care that much, then I suppose that is admirable.

I suppose I am from the opposite extremity in a way and in a nutshell believe that even if a dangerous snake is shot to remove a potentially dangerous threat, then so be it.
Human safety first, then the second priority is animal welfare. If both can be achieved without to much drama, then obviously I support that outcome.
 
Actually Saratoga true blue did say exactly that...a person is not competent if they use tongs...this is not the question.....the question I asked.....can anyone provide proof that midwest gentle giant tongs actually do any harm to the snakes........anyone???
 
So Dr. Bryan Fry is not competent.....hmmm one of the worlds leading venom researcher!!!

Being a leading researcher in this field unfortunately does not always equate with competency in animal welfare.

I'm not infering anything here with respect to Bryan Fry.....just stating one does not necessarily imply the other!
 
bud-cotton-gg.jpg

The downside of the Gentle Giant tongs is that they are fairly heavy and can be difficult to maneuver into small spaces where a snake might be hiding. They aren't the best choice of field tongs for these reasons, but they are excellent in the snake room for safely and gently moving animals around.
There are two other styles of tongs on the market. The Pilstrom style tongs are narrow and scissorlike, with the top jaw fitting inside a deep groove in the bottom jaw. I refer to these as "a snake chiropracter's nightmare" and suggest that they are good mainly for moving waterbowls and heavy cage furniture. An experienced handler can use them safely on snakes and some people like them very much for this purpose. However it is much too easy for someone less experienced to squeeze down hard enough to put harmful pressure on a snake's spine, so I don't generally recommend their use on live animals. I have personally seen and treated an uncomfortably large number of injuries to venomous snakes caused by inexperienced and frightened handlers using Pilstrom tongs.

The Gentle Giant is unmatched for gentle, stress-free snake moving for everyday maintenance in your snake room,;) and can be used on large bodied snakes that none of the other tongs can handle safely. All three are durable tools that will give you many years of good use.​
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Two different ways of grasping a snake with tongs are illustrated here. In the first photo above, Buddy is handling an adult Florida cottonmouth by holding her lower body and keeping the animal's body mostly supported on the ground. In the second illustration, a very bad tempered blacktail rattlesnake (Crotalus molossus) is being grasped around the upper part of his body in order to limit his strike range. His body is also being supported on the ground, and he will be pushed and dragged across the floor rather than picked high up off the ground.
Ground support or the additional support of a hook is essential for heavy bodied pit vipers because their fragile spines can be dislocated or broken with their unsupported weight alone. Elapids and colubrids have much more tolerance for being lifted entirely off the ground with tongs, but they don't seem to enjoy it and may struggle more under tong restraint than they would on a hook.;);)well straight from the horses mouth now:lol:
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This image illustrates how a snake's body may be supported on a hook while the animal is being lifted with tongs. This decreases the pressure on the snake's spine. The lifting should still be as brief as possible.
Never grab a snake by the neck with tongs as this will cause pain, injury and increased struggling. Grasp a smaller snake or a harmless snake midbody or lower. Grasp a large snake about 1/3 of the way down from the head to limit the distance it can strike at you. You may also try to tong a snake on the lower third of its body to drag it, but make sure that the tong is longer than the remaining length of snake.
Regardless of which style tong you are using, try not to lift a snake fully off the ground with tongs for longer than a few seconds without some other form of body support. You can use the tongs most effectively to slowly drag a snake across the ground in a "come-along" hold, pushing the animal into the sturdy safety container you have ready for it. Try to bring the container to the snake rather than the other way around to keep your handling time and stress on the animal to a minimum.
 
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I understand that some people do see the use of tongs as acceptable....but I am tired of arguing the fact they do not injure snakes......I want proof from these people of the damage they do......not defensive response of biting demonstrating stress....this can be shown with every technique......physical harm....physical damage.

I haven't read all the replies yet so sorry if I am repeating anything. But I use tongs occasionally and have used them well enough to not hurt the snake. I picked up a 4-5ft red belly after it had hit by a car. At the time appeared like it should have been put down. I handed him over to a carer who reported the snake making a full recovery and released 3 weeks later. This animal was bleeding from its mouth but the injury was at its tail end. So if one can recover from this, I really can't see how my grip on tongs could hurt a snake. The only downing I can give is that one time I used the tongs and while I had hold of the snake, the resident's dog ran in and attacked the snake. But that wasn't the fault of the tongs. That was my fault for not telling the ppl to restrain their dog. I have only used my tongs on 3 occasions and 2 out of 3 were successful rescues with minimal stress on the animals.

I can understand ppl's concern that using a forceful grip could cause crushing injuries, but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?

Commenting on the reply just before mine, I agree with him that supporting the snake with a hook while in the grip of tongs is probably crucial. When I attempted to pick up one snake in the tongs I felt the pressure on the tongs and believed it could also cause discomfort on the snake and used my hook to support his weight until I was able to bring him out into easier, workable area to get him in my bag.
 
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well even in the advertising they recommend the tongs only to be used in the SNAKE ROOM ...and make comment on how they struggle more then they do on a hook...and we have heavy set elapids in this Country too.
 
I was just editting my post as you wrote your comment RBB and yes I agree there that they would struggle with the tongs because they are being restrained. I only use them if I think I need to. I have probably made to 10 call outs this spring/summer season to red bellies and have only used my tongs 3 times. But I know what you mean about ppl who know how to make the right call. Tongs make it too easy for ppl to handle venomous snakes that shouldn't be touching them. So these ppl don't get the proper training because they think they can safely remove them, but only considering the safety of themselves and not for the animal as well.
 
I can understand ppl's concern that using a forceful grip could cause crushing injuries, but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?.............hell yeah Kathy cause money means more then any venomous snake ever would
 
When the tongs first came out, there was only the back breakers (pilstum type) available.
There is no shortage of proof of what these can do, specially in the hands of a person who has done a 2 day snake catchers co****, and only want to make a few bucks andbignote themselves.
The midwest gentle giants were not around in these days.
I was a ferocious opponent of these tongs and even though i have owned a set for he last 10 years or so, and i have them swathed in neprene and gaffa tape, and i keep them in the car,out of the 100s of snakes i catch i have only seen the need for their use in one or two situations.
unfortunatly they were in the car at the time and i made use of the hooks instead.
I have no proof of the gentle giants doing the same sort of damage the original pilstrums do, but unfortunatly the "proof" of damage might not show for day or even weeks after the capture.
Broken snake ribs are very fine and damage isnt evident straight way.
You can release your snake and in 2 weeks they will die of septic injuries form the injuries.
Like i said, the gentle giants are difinitly the better option if you must.
But only in experienced, proffesional hands.
Certainly never need them down here.
 
well then snakehandler ,even the gentle tong has its market uses as use in your reptile room ...to bad my callouts arent in my reptile room now ...and as far as the rest of the read if I wasnt already convinced of why I wouldnt I am now:)
 
RBB most people that purchase these in the states use them in reptile rooms,why target a small group of people such as snake catchers when you can target a much larger group such as venomous snake keepers...its called good marketing, however they are a useful tool. As I mentioned they cause stress, so does every technique out there, even hooking, sssnakeman you have evidence of pilstrum tong damage...what about gentle giants.

Injuries may show for up to a week later, hence the reason for 132 snakes studied over a summer, this included both xray and ultrasound to determine if there was any injury. Each snake was held for three weeks and then released with NO injury...I have proof to show that they do no physical damage....does any one out there have proof that the gentle giant tongs do harm?

So far we have seen Jonno change his mind and will now start to teach the use of tongs on the groups of OH&S, and many people stating they have used them when neccesary, but NO evidence of the harm that GG tongs do!
 
mysnakesau said:
but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?

Things like heat cords, mats and heat rocks can cause horrible injuries and even death in reptiles. However, there is little to no risk if used properly (eg. proper wattage and use of a thermostat). Is this not also true for tongs? An inexperienced keeper could burn the belly of a snake with a heat mat that is too strong, and that same keeper could break a snake's back or ribs by squeezing too tight when using tongs.
 
[video=youtube;brEyVyqBaCM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM[/video]

I know this clip is old and is still not evidence enough to suggest that the tongs are dangerous but I'd PAY top dollar to see if this snake was still living a healthy life. Interesting debate you have started snakehandler, though I can't be bothered reading most of it :p I don't use tongs, but I believe people can do as they like, everyone has their own opinion and we can't force people to think the same way as ourselves. Besides if everyone used the exact same husbandry and handling then it'd get boring. It's good to be able to veiw other peoples ways because every now and then you learn something new.
 
Ok I have to be the first to admit, I know that it isn't just the tong technique that he needs to work on and if the snake had died it wouldn't just be because of the tongs. He needs to work on his overall snake catching methods.
 
You also have to remember he is using the back breaking pilstrum tongs....once again we have been stating for years that these tongs are dangerous and need to be placed on the scrap heap, they are not GG tongs and would never be used by anyone we employ or used in any situation that we would be involved in......I can show videos of people using the technique of pinning and breaking the neck of a snake.....but that is not PROOF that GG tongs are dangerous to the health of a snake.
 
Snakehandler...Sounds to me you are just trying to sway ppl opinions so you can make a few extra sales. There may not be proof out there, but that doesnt mean anything to me. Im with RBB on this and think all tongs need to be scrapped.
 
pilbarapythons,- Dave its because they have gotten old and lost their balls. lol.
 
Actually sales of tongs do not make much of a difference to me......what I am trying to ascertain is if there is any evidence that gg tongs have done any damage to any snake at any time......if it can be shown that these tongs cause physical damage we WILL STOP using them!
 
I fail to see the point of this thread..... pretends to be a debate, though is just an ego massage from someone who claims to have tested something asking for what would be non-existant clinical data to refute their tests....
 
ihaveherps, the debate is to find out if anyone out there has done any study to prove that GG tongs cause damage...last time I spoke with a person in QLD after a meeting we had he mentioned that he was going to be testing them....Jonnno has been a long time opponent of tongs, yet he has tested them and will now use them in his courses....

There are alot of people who say they are brutal and cause damage....I am sick of having to prove they dont...its now time for those who claim brutality to stand up and show the proof....
 
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