Tongs debate!!

[Jonno from ERD]

Just to clarify - our choice of Gentle Giants wasn't because we think they are good, but because they aren't as bad as all the others. I tried some Raptors on the weekend and while they run second to Gentle Giants, they weren't up to scratch. We also tried the rest of Raptors gear - the hook was OK, very similar to what Geoff Coombe uses, but it was still quite fragile. The pinner was a disappointment - there is a huge market for a well made pinner and I was hoping Raptor would come to the table but unfortunately it didn't. It may work well for species such as Eastern Browns, but as soon as we tried to pin a 1.2m Kingy, it stuck it's chin into the table and pulled straight out from underneath. The tension was as tight as it could go and the two sprung arms were touching the table either side of the snake. The design of the hoop bag was good, with the angled handle and flat edged hoop, however it was a little flimsy and the opening was quite small.

 

[Kirby]

Tongs for BBQ snake, hooks for snakes.....

punctuation is necessary?

 

[Inlandtaipan078]

I havn't much experience with either but I use the gg"s and find them A bit more difficult to handle as apposed to the pilstum's, I would agree they are A better tong for begginers (safer for the snake) but i feel more comfortable with the older style if I have to use them at all!

 

[ihaveherps]

Snakehandler, Im still not understanding where this is going. I personally see a place for tongs, some instances they are a necessary tool, as Pilbara said, Im all for human safety first, animal a very close second.... but I highly doubt that the study you are asking for exists, as I am sure you are aware. Though I am totally against tongs as a be all and end all as a tool for catching vens. You brought up scenarios where pinners have broken necks, I am positive that these Gentle Giant tongs can indeed inflict damage when used incorrectly as well.... i promise that if you got me the ethical paperwork, the subject animals, and the tongs, I could definitely prove that I could cause damage, possibly even lethal damage, and would document it all for you if you wish. All in all I guess what I am trying to say is that Gentle Giant tongs arent a magical tool that is impervious to human error, just like no other method of capture is.

Kirby.... if you are going to rag on and punctuate someones sentence, at least get it right yourself.

 

[cement]

Theres an old saying "a good tradie never blames his tools". In fact a good carpenter should still be capable of good carpentry even with a third rate tool kit. The reason is because he understands the job on a much deeper level and knows the limits and capability of tools and the science of materials. In other words he goes by feel rather then intellect.

The same goes for snakehandlers. A good handler should be able to do the job with any tool and sometimes make do with whats at hand. If you feel out of water because you don't have your favourite hook then your relying on your attachment to something, rather then your ability.

Is this just a big plug for gentle giants tongs? If you like them then good for you. I don't get this thread.

 

[mysnakesau]

......The same goes for snakehandlers. A good handler should be able to do the job with any tool and sometimes make do with whats at hand. If you feel out of water because you don't have your favourite hook then your relying on your attachment to something, rather then your ability.......

That is a very good point. That is probably what I wanted to say when I mentioned earlier about untrained ppl using them, thinking they can go out and catch snakes because they have a set of these. Tongs give ppl false sense of security and they think they don'tneed to undergo proper training to catch the animals safely and humanely. And its ppl like these who give the rest of us bad names because they are only considering their own safety without too much care for the animal's welfare - mostly because they know no better.

 

[-Peter]

I cant comment as I have, contrary to the claims of one RH, never used a pair of snake tongs of any make or model. Never had the need, yet.
Dave Williams uses them. I respect why he does.

 

[tomcat88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM.

wow that vid is messed up

 

[snakehandler]

I agree that people need to have correct training to work with tongs, hooks, tailing and pinning....that is not what this thread is asking....it is a simple question....besides all the anecdotal evidence is there any proof.

ihaveherps....why not get the paperwork yourself...I had to do it to proove that they didnt cause harm....if people out there what to condemn a piece of equipment based on opinion only then you have no chance....base it on facts.....I am not trying to drum up sales, I have no interest in midwest, I am trying to ascertain if there is any data out there to show the damage done by GG tongs when they are used by trained people.....or any people.....also ihaveherps I can go out of my way to show you how a hook can damage a snake too, or even techniques such as pinning and tailing, what I am after is the actions of a reasonable person who is competent with the tools they have been given, what damage is caused by GG tongs...thats it plain and simple.

If you can't give me fact, and you dont know how to get it then how am I supposed to get a balanced report. As mentioned before I have done the study to show the effect of these tongs. I have the data, I went to the expense, and the whole jist of the experiment was to determine if GG tongs caused physical harm to a snake, it was not to proove they did no harm. The outcome after a year of study was NO.....only then did we use them outside of the study....if the answer was yes the study would have stopped and the tongs never used elsewhere by ourselves.

 

[saratoga]

A video using pilstrom tongs...yes, yes I know...not gentle giants.

[video=youtube;r5cgHpFolDw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5cgHpFolDw[/video]

I think its some type of Tiger Snake from Africa

One of the big problems I see with tongs comes not just from the pressure put on the snake by the clamping action, but from the threat of being grabbed and clamped. The snake will then often wrap around the tongs and use the coils to try and pull itself from them. I think this is particularly the case if grabbed near the head(not good practice anyhow). Also the snake will often thrash around and try to bite whatever it can thats hurting it.

A black snake in a photo on your website has damaged neck scales consistent with trying to pull back through a set of tongs. Not suggesting this applies in this case, it could also have been caused by other factors; but at any rate probably not the best choice of image to use as a lead into your webpage.


Has this guy got hold of the head or the tail?... and he's a trained snake relocator according the article. Why on earth would you use tongs in an open area like this?...if at all

I'm still pretty hard pressed to justify the use of tongs except in exceptional circumstances.

 

[snakehandler]

Saratoga, that black snake you mention was actually photograped just after being released from mono filament bird netting...not anything to do with handling techniques. It was photographed years before the tongs were even part of what we have in our handling equipment...get your facts straight before trying to throw mud.

Where do you get off by making false allegations????

Tongs are a last resort method of capture and should only ever be used when there is no alternative...this is something that I have been saying all along.

The photo you show is a person holding a snake whilst working for a company....OH&S will state that hands off techniques are preferred and due to the lack of perceived control hooking is not the number one method of capture....

And why would anyone attempt the grab so close to the head of a snake....that has too many potential risks associated with it, not only missing the snake, but also the serious potential of damage to the head........

The photo i one of eight banners that scroll through...yes it has marks on the back of its neck...probably not the best choice of photos....but we have not changed it simply because we have seen no need to, apart from you and one of Melbourne based snake catcher this has never been an issue......

 

[redbellybite]

snakehandler are you able to put up a vid of you using the "gentle giant tongs " showing how you catch and relocate a wild ven ? just so we see the other side of the coin ,cause we all know the pilstrom tongs are simply mutilators..at least then we can visualise what your saying ,as we are all familiar with the hook and tail method ...

 

[moosenoose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM

I know this clip is old and is still not evidence enough to suggest that the tongs are dangerous but I'd PAY top dollar to see if this snake was still living a healthy life. Interesting debate you have started snakehandler, though I can't be bothered reading most of it I don't use tongs, but I believe people can do as they like, everyone has their own opinion and we can't force people to think the same way as ourselves. Besides if everyone used the exact same husbandry and handling then it'd get boring. It's good to be able to veiw other peoples ways because every now and then you learn something new.

To be honest I was going to search for the same video as a prime example of tongs in the hands of someone who doesn't give a crap about the animals welfare.

Whilst I find people like Austin Stevens annoying with their staged shows, he seems to love his tongs, and when he does use them, seldom does he close them.

I think with a bit of compassion about what you're doing with them, you can go a long way in using them safely on the animal. Grabbing wildly with loads of sticks and bark in with the snake would undoubtably cause serious injury to whatever is being rescued. I'm not totally convinced they are a bad thing to have around - the jury is out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[snakehandler]

RBB, I have pm'd you as to the reason that I am not posting a video with tonging, one of the main reasons however is that we do not wish for people to attempt a technique without learning it properly first. This may sound like a cop out but I feel strongly about this and will not show video on any forum at any time of myself or my staff handling elapids.

You mentioned very in another series of posts that a person saw a documentary that showed a person using a set of tongs, he then used garbage tongs to attempt to remove a snake.....why then are you asking me to show video when you yourself say that it is irresponsible???

 

[redbellybite]

I know what I said S ,but was just asking you ,as a professional can show the right way of using these tongs ..and explaining in your vid the do;s and donts etc ...was not trying to drag this debate on was simply asking you ...and like you said no matter what they have on the market wether we agree or not there will always be the cowboys that take matters into there own hands ,I think that is partly why I am against the tongs as well ,it makes the cowboys of this particular world more accessible to being the HERO of the day so to speak ...but you have stated why you wont fair enough ..

 

[snakehandler]

RBB while I agree you the sentiment, the instructional nature of the videos we have cannot be shown on this site as I am NOT a sponsor....you would require Jonno to do such a thing at this stage. There are cowboys out there now that will pin snakes just cos they can and because they ahve seen many people such at Rob Bredle do it for years on tv.

 

[mysnakesau]

I am confused now. What are "gentle giant tongs". Looking at that video Saratoga posted, I have the tongs that are shown in that clip. Are they the tongs that ppl consider cruel? I am still yet to alter mine, wrapping some foam around one of the prong thingies, but luckily I haven't needed to use them now.

 

[snakehandler]

The ones shown are called pilstum tongs, gentle giant tongs are very different. The picture attached shows the head of the gentle giant tongs....they are a flat plate which does not meet when closed, not very useful on small snakes for that reason!

 

[redbellybite]

[video=youtube;TmxY4WZ535A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmxY4WZ535A[/video]
can you imagine if these fools got there hands on a set of tongs...........no species of snake would be safe

 

[snakehandler]

yes but can you imagine if they are allowed to breed?