Would they just keep on eating?

[guzzo]

Perhaps it's not a good idea to generalize. Take for example fast moving elapids and something like a lazy GTP - entirely different when it comes to food intake v exercise. Chappell Island tiger snakes gorge themselves for two months then starve for the rest of the year. Hibernation is another factor.

In captivity, I firmly believe that obesity reduces reproductive potential / appetite in adults snakes.

Interesting thought I had not considered. I saw a green tree snake in my yard and it zipped up a tree and away in the blink of an eye. I am sure it would have a much higher metabolism than a python that eats and sits and as a result I imagine would feed much more often. How often to APS people feed your green tree snakes? or elapids? same as your pythons? I suppose food size may differ though.

 

[saximus]

I asked about owning colubrids the other day and was told they will eat every couple of days during the active times

 

[hugsta]

Interesting thought I had not considered. I saw a green tree snake in my yard and it zipped up a tree and away in the blink of an eye. I am sure it would have a much higher metabolism than a python that eats and sits and as a result I imagine would feed much more often. How often to APS people feed your green tree snakes? or elapids? same as your pythons? I suppose food size may differ though.

Feeding animals as an adult is totally different to how you would feed a hatchling/juvenile one. Snakes grow quite rapidly for the first couple of years and then start to slow down. So you then adjust the animals food intake to suit. Regardless of the animal, they should be fed in accordance to their body condition.

On chappell island tigers, you wouldn't bring one into captivity and gorge it on mutton birds for 2 months would you? Most would fed it regularly and keep them in healthy condition along with most animals kept in captivity.

I agree that a fat snake could reduce breeding potential, not sure about appetite though, I have seen some huge fat snakes that never knock back a feed. Spose there are always those animals that break the 'rules' on keeping.

 

[Waterrat]

On the average, fat males are lousy breeders.

 

[girdheinz]

On the average, fat males are lousy breeders.

Is this based on you countless years of experience breeding snakes in captivity, since 07 isn't it? Do you have any stats to back up your claims? on multiple species? Earlier you said let's not generalise, sounds like your doing this now. I know you keep stats on everything so put them up. The Children's pythons in the high feeding treatment group were no less effective than the males in the low feeding treatment group fertilising all females they were put with. Males simply switch themselves off (self regulate) when they have had enough to eat, ask ANY antaresia breeder and they will tell you that.

Many claims are made in amateur herp circles with simply no facts at all. Our data shows basically you cannot overfeed an antaresia in the first 18 months of it's life, they regulated the treatment of 30% of BW a week to a level not more than 18% BW per week. This indicates that they know when enough is enough. i suspect this is the same for most other python species apart from perhaps womas and bhp's.

Gird

 

[longqi]

There is a lot of debate about over feeding retics and burmese now in Indonesia

My Burmese two years old 2 metres fit and healthy handled often
Its sister two years old 3.2metres looks obese to me very seldom handled

Its sister is being power fed for breeding at 3 years [I think too young]
Long term effects so far unknown
lots of anecdotal evidence but no proven facts as far as I know

 

[girdheinz]

The problem is long term effects (if any) will never be known conclusively. What body scores have been developed for snakes? None because they aren't food production animals. Who determines what is healthy and what is not? There are plenty of fat water pythons during plagues of rats. Like you say all evidence is anecdotal when it comes to long term effects.

Again it comes down to why are you keeping the snake? Some people keep snakes as production machines. I know of a breeder that has produced 99 womas from a powerfed 10 yr old woma. He was mad he didn't crack 100. Is this wrong if it's your business? This snake is still alive. The same breeder has maculosa at around 2kg in weight that produce 25 plus eggs every season and are around 15 years old.

By these results you would say any experiment would need to be run for 20 plus years. No-one can even answer the question, how long is a snake supposed to live? In the wild they come up against predators and a host of parasites and life's a constant battle. Do we want to keep like this?

We started doing captive dietary experiments to dispel a few myths that float around the hobby, however no matter what data you put into peer reviewed journals there is always a keeper in his own little world that knows more.

I am a scientist, i will follow science in the way i keep, that is my prerogative. The beauty is everyone can do their own thing and follow whatever they believe is right. I just can't stand the amount of generalist information that comes out of certain mouths and how it's treated as gospel because they are a cyber god. Oh well maybe i'm just jealous i am not as popular. Oh Jamie i see you reading this mate, maybe i should follow your philosophy and get on the red ;-).

Gird

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Oh well maybe i'm just jealous i am not as popular.

Oh yes you are... at least in some circles!!! I think feeding routines are as you say - more for our convenience than the snake's welfare. I'm probably more consistent with hatchies - every 4-5 days for the first few months, but beyond that it may fluctuate from a couple of days between, to 2-3 weeks, depending on my own time constraints. I'm sure this is more reflective of the natural feeding of a snake in the wild, and it certainly does no harm.

Many species will go from feast to famine on an annual basis without harm

The problem I have is that new keepers don't have a connection with the lives of wild snakes these days, and they panic if the animal isn't fed when they think it should be... at the same time, on the same night, every week.

Jamie

 

[saximus]

The problem I have is that new keepers don't have a connection with the lives of wild snakes these days, and they panic if the animal isn't fed when they think it should be... at the same time, on the same night, every week.

Jamie

I'm a little embarrassed to say it actually took me a few years to realise this. I used to panic every time my boy missed a feed and would offer every day or two thinking he would starve if he went a whole extra week. Doing some reading and gaining a better understanding of life in the wild (probably what I should have done to begin with) made this whole feeding thing much less stressful for me and my snakes.

 

[Waterrat]

Is this based on you countless years of experience breeding snakes in captivity, since 07 isn't it?
Gird

Settle down Gird, or should I address you Prof. Gird?
I have been keeping / breeding reptiles on an amateur and professional level since 1968, not 07. This a forum not a scientific journal, how silly of you asking for data or stats.

 

[longqi]

Our breeding stock is fed like clockwork

Our display animals very differently
Because no animals are allowed be handled within 5 days after feeding we feed larger meals
every three weeks [except for young snakes which are fed much more often]
This means we have access to handling that animal for about 14 days out of 21 [shedding vet etc etc]
This is purely a financial consideration but has worked well for many years

 

[girdheinz]

Settle down Gird, or should I address you Prof. Gird?
I have been keeping / breeding reptiles on an amateur and professional level since 1968, not 07. This a forum not a scientific journal, how silly of you asking for data or stats.

My mistake in must just be all the NSW old time herpers who have never heard of you. Where have you been hiding since 68?

 

[Waterrat]

My mistake in must just be all the NSW old time herpers who have never heard of you. Where have you been hiding since 68?

Ask John Cann, John Weigel and Robyn (no good asking Eric, George Cann, Vic Hayden or Charles Tanner) Peter Karuss was in NSW in the 60s, Neville Burns, et al. I haven't been hiding since, I left Sydney in 78 and worked at Cairns Tropical Zoo for 6 years, then I studied at JCU and I started this GTP program in 2006, not 07.
Now tell us your history, where have you been hiding all your life? No one I know ever heard about you. Do you have any friends?

 

[girdheinz]

You dropping names again? I don't profess to be an expert, i know all of those people you mention above and they know me (they all speak very highly of you ;-)) , but that doesn't make you or me as respected as them. However i do believe in having sound scientific principles behind what i say whether on a forum or anywhere. I am a honeybee scientist (half your age) and have published on honeybees and honeybee pests/ reptiles in peer reviewed journals and kept snakes for only 14 years legally but i don't feel the need to be worshipped for my short past.

Gird

I know Jamie Stuart that's got to count for something? That all from me now i have revealed myself.

Gird

 

[Waterrat]

I am impressed Gird. That's all from me.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Hey yeah... his would HAVE to be the most significant name you could drop, by a very big margin!!!

Nah... he's just a troublemaker...

J