Culling off weak reptiles?

[Nagraj]

It is misleading and in fact completely incorrect to use the terms "natural selection" and "in the wild" in this discussion.

 

[nicholaskostyk]

if a snake has a kink or lump in it
i dont belive it should be culled off i know someone who owns a jungle that was given to him as a hatchling just because it had a lump on its body and now its full grown and living a very happy life
so i dont belive in culling animals of and type just because they are different
il'd be happy to take any animals that are different

 

[FusionMorelia]

were not talking about a slight kink in a tail here were talking about animals with major issues, major deformation and animals that need to be force fed etc etc.
whens the last time u saw a dog/cat/bird or what ever breeder selling or giving away an animal with half a bottom jaw or only 2 legs or a paralyzed animal or an animal so skinny its a walking skeleton from refusing food?
hate to tell ya this but they get killed off.

 

[giggle]

were not talking about a slight kink in a tail here were talking about animals with major issues, major deformation and animals that need to be force fed etc etc.
whens the last time u saw a dog/cat/bird or what ever breeder selling or giving away an animal with half a bottom jaw or only 2 legs or a paralyzed animal or an animal so skinny its a walking skeleton from refusing food?
hate to tell ya this but they get killed off.

Funny that isn't it. Because species such as dogs and cats can clearly show pain and discomfort to us... and the appearance of a dog with only half a jaw is really shocking...
They are most certainly born. And they are most certainly euthanised as soon as possible.

I haven't had any deformed puppies, but I know people that have. A lot of breeders also euthanise their "fading puppies", a fading puppy is essentially the same thing as fussy/non-eating snakes.
They just dont have a feeding response, so they just dont eat and they slowly painfully die from hunger (some breeders just allow them to die slowly from their hunger without intervention!! Horribly cruel.).
If you nurture these puppies, they eventually start to eat (at about 6-8 weeks). There is always the odd breeder who not only nurtures these pups but then 'forgets' that they were once a fading puppy, sells them on to someone else who breeds them and gets a bunch of fading puppies in their litter... and so the problem is perpetuated. I personally nurture the pup and then have it desexed. But thats not a realistic option for reptile breeders. No matter what, you cant trust someone else with your responsibility
Some breeders end up with whole litters of fading puppies or puppies they need to supplement. Because they let a couple live and reproduce... the issue becomes wide spread. Personally, any issues the pup is desexed and sold as a pet.

 

[dragonboy69]

Funny that isn't it. Because species such as dogs and cats can clearly show pain and discomfort to us... and the appearance of a dog with only half a jaw is really shocking...
They are most certainly born. And they are most certainly euthanised as soon as possible.

I haven't had any deformed puppies, but I know people that have. A lot of breeders also euthanise their "fading puppies", a fading puppy is essentially the same thing as fussy/non-eating snakes.
They just dont have a feeding response, so they just dont eat and they slowly painfully die from hunger (some breeders just allow them to die slowly from their hunger without intervention!! Horribly cruel.).
If you nurture these puppies, they eventually start to eat (at about 6-8 weeks). There is always the odd breeder who not only nurtures these pups but then 'forgets' that they were once a fading puppy, sells them on to someone else who breeds them and gets a bunch of fading puppies in their litter... and so the problem is perpetuated. I personally nurture the pup and then have it desexed. But thats not a realistic option for reptile breeders. No matter what, you cant trust someone else with your responsibility
Some breeders end up with whole litters of fading puppies or puppies they need to supplement. Because they let a couple live and reproduce... the issue becomes wide spread. Personally, any issues the pup is desexed and sold as a pet.

Well my opinion is that yes in the wild only the stong survive.But in captivity the weak will survive because they are not being hasseled by the strong.So there is no need for you to cull them. Talking about dogs cats horses etc if they have deformed offsprigs im sure that possiblly the vet would cull thenm as he would be by law be able to do it. Were as if you or I did it it would be illegal as thats animal cruelty as we are not licenced to do it . I might be wrong but im just thinking common sense. So if you cull yourself what do you put down in the book laid just say 20 eggs culled 5 for being deformed.How do you explain that when you hand in you books to the appropiate authorities im curious.If the RSPCA find out about it try fighting them in court who would win Id wonder.But if the vet culled them then im sure you would be ok as they are licenced to do it and your not.Also what would happen when you have a child say born with dissabilities do you cull them no you wouldnt but you might give them up for addoption or give them to appropiate care ie specialised care mental/dissability hospitals just a couple of examples sorry dont mean to be rude ok.Why because you cant look after them so give your reptiles to appropiate careers.So how would you no if they are gernuine carers ask aruond such as animal organisations or interview prospective carers such as good reputable dog breeders do to future buyers.Why because if you have a good bloodline healthy obidient dogs they the breeders are looking good and they have a good name. But if they sell it to say Crazy Bob down the road without asking him questions.That person abusises the dog and makes it into a crazy dog and bites some kid the breeder feels bad and looks bad because he diddnt question the owner to find out if he was cappable of looking after the animal and that he was not responsible.So why did he sell it to him for without asking him questions because the breeder was not a responsible breeder either.Sorry if im of track but my opinion is if its culled by a vet its ok.If not just look after it or give it to appropiate care and ask questions make sure they are responsible cause if they are responsible and they care they wont be breeding those animals . If you cull yourself I beleivee that is animal cruelty thats just my opinion ok so dont crusify me for stating my opinions ok sorry for the spelling ok

 

[beeman]

Well my opinion is that yes in the wild only the stong survive.But in captivity the weak will survive because they are not being hasseled by the strong.So there is no need for you to cull them. Talking about dogs cats horses etc if they have deformed offsprigs im sure that possiblly the vet would cull thenm as he would be by law be able to do it. Were as if you or I did it it would be illegal as thats animal cruelty as we are not licenced to do it . I might be wrong but im just thinking common sense. So if you cull yourself what do you put down in the book laid just say 20 eggs culled 5 for being deformed.How do you explain that when you hand in you books to the appropiate authorities im curious.If the RSPCA find out about it try fighting them in court who would win Id wonder.But if the vet culled them then im sure you would be ok as they are licenced to do it and your not.Also what would happen when you have a child say born with dissabilities do you cull them no you wouldnt but you might give them up for addoption or give them to appropiate care ie specialised care mental/dissability hospitals just a couple of examples sorry dont mean to be rude ok.Why because you cant look after them so give your reptiles to appropiate careers.So how would you no if they are gernuine carers ask aruond such as animal organisations or interview prospective carers such as good reputable dog breeders do to future buyers.Why because if you have a good bloodline healthy obidient dogs they the breeders are looking good and they have a good name. But if they sell it to say Crazy Bob down the road without asking him questions.That person abusises the dog and makes it into a crazy dog and bites some kid the breeder feels bad and looks bad because he diddnt question the owner to find out if he was cappable of looking after the animal and that he was not responsible.So why did he sell it to him for without asking him questions because the breeder was not a responsible breeder either.Sorry if im of track but my opinion is if its culled by a vet its ok.If not just look after it or give it to appropiate care and ask questions make sure they are responsible cause if they are responsible and they care they wont be breeding those animals . If you cull yourself I beleivee that is animal cruelty thats just my opinion ok so dont crusify me for stating my opinions ok sorry for the spelling ok

It is not illegal to humainly destroy an animal at all!, Those of us that are
primary producers (farmers) are faced with having to put animals down as part
of our work! I see no difference in this instance either!

Provided it is done quickly, cleanly and humainly there is nothing the glorafied
idiots that call themselves the RSPCA can do about it!

 

[J-A-X]

sorry for the large post, but this is the RSPCA AUSTRALIA ANIMAL CHARTER. individual states may have other limitations, i didnt look that far. I included the entire charter so i can be accused of taking something out of context. this is not just for primary producers. this is for ALL animal owners.

1. Animals have an intrinsic value of their own and, accordingly, must be considered to possess the right to live in a way which enables them to have a positive life and to develop and enjoy their inherent qualities
2. No animal should be used for the production of food or fibre, either by farming practice, transportation, or method of slaughter which in any way may cause suffering, injury or distress.
3. No animal should be used for sport or the entertainment of humans when such use may increase the risk of injury, suffering or distress to the animals, or is contrary to its nature.
4. Animals should not be used in direct combat, either one against the other or in warfare.
5. Animals should not be used in experiments which inflict pain or suffering upon them and which are not essential for the benefit of humans or animals. The use of animals should be replaced by reliable alternative techniques immediately they become available.
6. No animal should be used in excessive breeding programs or programs which produce deformed or weak offspring.
7. Domestic animals must be effectively protected from adverse weather conditions, predators and disease.
8. Domestic animals must be kept in such a way which will enable them to socialise, move freely, stretch, lie down, and have access to clean water, a suitable balanced food supply, and to prophylactic and corrective medicines.
9. Native animals and birds should be maintained safely in their natural environment and should be free from hunting, trapping and captivity. Culling may occur, but only when proven necessary for the preservation and benefit of the species. Culling must only be carried out under proper supervision and control.
10. Any animal suffering from disease, injury, or debilitation, must be given first aid or appropriate veterinary attention quickly. If the affliction cannot be cured, or if it involves permanent and serious disability, the animal must be humanely destroyed.
11. The State shall enact and enforce laws, regulations and codes for protecting animals from exploitation, and for ensuring that their basic individual needs are maintained at all times and that their environment is kept free from illegal or irresponsible intrusion.
12. The State shall also develop and implement suitable educational programs or ensure that human responsibility and their duty of care towards animals is taught in all schools and in the wider community.

To me, point 6 is saying that you should not knowingly breed from deformed or weak offspring. So if deformed or weak offspring are produced (even a 'one of' )they should not be onsold to further produce deformed of weak offspring. Given that we cannot neuter pythons then there is only one alternative. culling.

 

[Elapidae1]

I believe that those who are against humane culling, euthanasia are to weak to accept it as their responsibility when caring for animals. Rather than go through the distress of having to make the decision to take the animals life into their own hands they would allow an animals suffering while still feeling their conscience is clear.

 

[J-A-X]

I agree 100% with you about primary producers ie farmers can destroy as per your work but try arguing it with them about your reptiles im not saying im 100% right but dont think you would win in that instance. I dont agree 100% with the RSPCA but I beleive we got to follow the law.So That means we cant cull only a vet can cull unless your a primary producer.

This was why i posted the charter. you were under the impression that it was illegal to cull your own animals in certain circumstances, unless you were a vet or primary producer

who is arguing the point about selling the offsprings I agree dont sell it or breed it off load it to who can take appropiate care im sure sensible people here will take them off you and not breed them or if not then take them to the vet to cull them appropiately

there was a comment made about selling off the deformed or weak offspring, the danger then is that we cannot guarantee that somewhere down the track they will not be part of a breeding program, and it is not possible to desex these individuals. so therefore according to the charter, they should be culled.

 

[FusionMorelia]

i think alot of people here are missing a major point, were not talking about culling of animals that just dont look good were talking about animals with MAJOR deformity's and weakness that would/could effect the gene pool in a bad way.
i very much doubt any "sensible" person could look after an animal that cant hardly move or has heavy skull/jaw problems etc etc
also i think its worse to keep an animal alive when its quality of life is very bad

 

[giggle]

who is arguing the point about selling the offsprings I agree dont sell it or breed it off load it to who can take appropiate care im sure sensible people here will take them off you and not breed them or if not then take them to the vet to cull them appropiately

No. It is a breeders responsibility to take care of the animals they breed for its entire life. They can not do that if they give it away. Here is an example for you...

I used to work in rescue. I used to rescue animals and find homes for them. At first, I did this for free. Until I saw what happens to those free animals. In very rare cases, there are excellent people who look after that animal until the day it dies. These cases are RARE. Most people who do not pay for an animal, do not value its existence. Or they see a way to make 'a quick buck'. Or they are misguided and think "he has such a lovely personality though and thats all that matters when you have a pet! Im going to breed him!"

I gave away a lovely little dog to a sweet couple who promised never to breed her, to have her desexed, to love her and let her sleep on the bed etc etc. I believed them, they seemed like the loveliest people you can imagine! For a couple of months I got photos! I was pleased, I felt I made the right choice for her. Then the emails stopped. Then, I couldnt track them down... they had even moved.
Three years later... the dog is dropped on my doorstep in a tiny little crate... I took her inside and opened the door. She wouldnt come out. I left her for a bit... the smell wasn't nice.. I left the door open hoping she would come out. By that evening she was still in there. I gentely pulled her out... she was terrified. And I was horrified. She was caked in dirty, or droppings, it was hard to tell. Her fur was matted to her skin and full of prickles. She screamed everytime I touched her. Her tail was matted to the back of her legs. It wasn't until 12 that night... about four hours of washing and clipping and very careful grooming... until she was moderately clean. Her ears were oozing, she had terrible case of ear mites and there were sores all over her body from the filth she was covered in. She had even had two litters of crossbred puppies.
Months later after rehabilitation... she was the most outgoing dog I ever met. The horror she must have endured during her time away from us, I can not imagine!

So no... giving away animals is not an option. People may be utterly believable in their promises to do this and that... but you can never know when situation might change... or what they are truly thinking and not saying.

 

[giggle]

I believe that those who are against humane culling, euthanasia are to weak to accept it as their responsibility when caring for animals. Rather than go through the distress of having to make the decision to take the animals life into their own hands they would allow an animals suffering while still feeling their conscience is clear.

Indeed! It takes strength to do it... and it is heartbreaking.

 

[Echiopsis]

yes fair enough but sometimes fault from being linebreed may show up later on down the line what happens then please explain who is responsible then ok and dont get angry as I think im asking a sensible question were would it stop the responsibility of the breeder. I think that once you have let it go the responsibility that you had with the animal is finished with you. That is as longh as you have been honest.

You need to stop thinking, youll hurt yourself or some unsuspecting bystander with all that brain function. What started as a thread worth reading is deteriorating into dribble directly due to what your typing. Give up.

 

[giggle]

Hey dragonboy, I will give a go at answering you on this, but it does seem you are just looking for a way to disagree and justify your thoughts

Every breeder has the responsibility for what they produce.

Therefor once a healthy animal is in the hands of another breeder, that other breeder now has the responsibility for the stock he/she produces!
Its common sense really lol Otherwise we would all be blaming our predecessors and no one would get anywhere.
If the animal produces offspring with inheritable conditions, testing to prove the source would need to be done and then a replacement may be offered.
It is up to both breeders to act responsibly in the case of a serious inheritable defect. First the owner of the animal needs to contact the original breeder and be honest about the extent of the issue, the breeding and the environmental influences. The original breeder may then request test breedings depending on the condition, to determine whether the origin was the animal he/she produced. Some wont even bother with test breedings and simply replace the animal... it all depends on how important the lines are of that animal.
I'm speaking from the point of view of a dog breeder here though... I have no snake breeding experience... But I believe that snakes do not have the many varying and complex heritable diseases that dogs have.

You also have to understand that some things are loosely heritable. This means a predisposition may be there, but the condition itself is not heritable.
For example, an otherwise lovely female may produce one or two offspring out of 100 that have a congenital kink in their tail. Not all her offspring are affected. She herself should not be eliminated from breeding as the majority of her offspring are in perfect condition. Those offspring that do have kinks though, you can bet the percentage of their offspring with kinks would likely be higher. It is not a heritable condition as such, but the predisposition being there, you would with each clutch, weed out the weaker animals and therefor increase the overall strength of your line. Its breeding 101 really If you are interested in breeding you might want to do a little research into genetics and also congenital defects.

 

[giggle]

BTW even in dogs, it is not the linebreeding itself that is detrimental to the animals health.
Done correctly, it produces healthier animals than outcrossing.

Look at lab rats for example. They are severely inbred to increase their health and vigor. Pet rats are by far weaker.

Where dog breeders go wrong... is that they focus on breeding fancy looking animals and forget the health of the animal. So, if you have an otherwise beautiful dog that has a weak rear end movement... and you breed it with its uncle who also has weak rear movement... then you double up on weak rear movement and create a problem for yourself! This happens when breeders refuse to be as harsh on their lines as they need to be.

For example, I bred Tibetan Spaniels. My lines were free of PRA, patella luxation, liver shunt and were over all healthy; having longer muzzles, smaller neater eyes and silkier coats. I was extremely harsh on what animals I used and if I felt I had an issue with one dog that needed breeding out I would outcross the animal to 'waterdown' the effects and try to eliminate the fault from my lines.
My lines were rather carefully and closely line bred and I was careful not to bring in the wrong kind of new blood that may introduce one of the heritable conditions my lines were currently free from.

The same thing can happen when crossbreeding dogs. If you breed a boxer with a doberman with the theory the muzzles will be longer and therefor the animals will be healthier... then you have no understanding of the complexity of genetics.
In its simplest reckoning... we could say that teeth size is just one thing passed from parents. Then teeth placement. Then nose size. Nose shape. Lip shape. Skull size. Skull shape. upper jaw length. Lower jaw length. See what I mean? Say the dog inherits the boxers teeth size, the dobermans teeth placement, the dobermans jaw width and the boxers skull width. :| Can you imagine the results? The dogs teeth would be crammed into its tiny narrow mouth, as boxers normally have a wide jaw to accommodate their large widely spaced teeth.
It is a common and fatal flaw of thinking... that thoughtless hybridization in a complex animal creates vigor.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Some excellant back to back posts.
Nice one Giggle .

 

[wokka]

So giggle, Are you suggesting that a breeder is only responsible for heritable faults, and fpr faults caused by environment, such as incubation temperature they are not?

 

[giggle]

So giggle, Are you suggesting that a breeder is only responsible for heritable faults, and fpr faults caused by environment, such as incubation temperature they are not?

Im not sure what you mean? Do you mean in the animal they sell... or in the animals down from their lines produced by another breeder?

To save time I will answer both xD

If they are selling an animal with a fault that was caused by environmental factors, the breeder would need to assess those faults. If the issue is impacting that animals quality of life then we are back to the ideas and ethics of culling and euthanasia again Which I have stated my opinion on already.

If the injury does not impact the quality of life of the animal... or the quality of its progeny... They need to disclose that fault to the person purchasing that animal and an agreement should be made as to the future of the animal. Im not very experienced with snakes, but lets say the animal had a heater burn prior to sale and was scarred, the breeder should disclose this to the purchaser. Such a thing may not affect the animals performance as a breeding animal, but it is ethical to disclose such information prior to an agreement of purchase. If the new owner then later down the track has issue with the fault, even though it was fully disclosed... then no, the breeder does not need to replace the animal.

Alternatively...

If breeder 1 has sold on a healthy animal to breeder 2... and breeder 2 breeds the animal and then through a fault of keeping or incubating issues arise... then this is the responsibility of the person in charge of those animals care, i.e. breeder 2. Same thing for if that animal sold by breeder 1 to breeder 2 is injured while in the care of breeder 2.
If the condition was pre-existing prior to sale however and was not disclosed by breeder 1... then it is breeder 1's responsibility A refund or replacement should be offered.

I guess it comes down to common sense and taking responsibility for your own actions

 

[giggle]

Some excellant back to back posts.
Nice one Giggle .

thank you Roger

 

[kupper]

i think this thread should be moved to the veterans section mods