Culling off weak reptiles?

[Chris1]

was for 15 years, then the doc said i either had to take lots of supplements of eat red meat once a week, i eat a small portion of beef weekly
its a bit if a struggle for me,...it is after all a disgusting chunk of dead animal muscle,..but i have to admit im alot less tired since i started, and the IBS has improved,..

i agree weak and deformed animals shouldnt be bred, but they can still enjoy a happy life as a pet....so maybe the humans that feel the need to breed everything are the ones who deserve to be culled,....

 

[SnakeyTroy]

I think it is important to cull off the weak and deformed animals. this is what would happen in the wild. nature always naturally culls the weak animals so that the good genes are passed on for future generations and not the bad genes.
if we were breeding and selling inferior quality animals we would just end up with one big mess. It seems harsh but I feel its the best way.
for those worried that healthy animals might get culled I am pretty sure that most breeders would be very considerate as to which animals are culled. they are not going to cull a healthy animal as they would be hurting themselves financially.

 

[scorps]

And there goes the typical aps pattern, a thread is opened up by a reptile keeper who is interested in discusing something other then how to look after bearded dragons (or whatever) and he openly asks for peoples oppinions and instead of the people who dont agree saying I dont agree theres people personally attacking the other side of the argument.

Not talking about any one in particular but this is a genuinly interesting thread so come on people please act like adults and try and be a bit mature (seems on this site the children are normally the mature ones)

Ben

 

[ihaveherps]

I have had to cull hatchies.... maybe people miss the finer details in this shortened format, Troy not expanding to a case by case scenarios may have glossed over the processes involved in what is really a decision that no keeper wants to make, and it seems, even less will admit to. Any person who produces their fair share of clutches, will undoubtedly run into the occasional hatchy that wasn't designed to survive, and honestly, this number of poor doer's grows exponentially the larger the clutch sizes.

I am no fool, and give my hatchys every opportunity to feed, scenting, cleaning, live pinks (awaiting the hoardes of flamers for that), mixed prey items, assisting tails, and even force feeding.... and sometimes all failed. I have bred animals that looked outwardly perfect, though as they deteriorated were culled, and opened for inspection had twisted bowels, easily visable, as their digestive tracts browned towards the vent, closer (magnified inspection) the twist can be located. The animal was clearly struggling, with an obvious effect on its appetite, and in this case was saved for a slow painful death. For all intensive reasons, this couldnt have been diagnosed by a vetrinarian, without invasive exploration.... take it to the vet I hear.... it was a 4g stimsons python, smaller than the average earthworm.

I dont think I need to defend my actions, though if there is to be debate.... lets see how many people will be honest about the animals they hatch, that are not eauthanised, and deteriorate until their demise, rather than culled humanely. I would gaurantee that most, if not all keepers have lost hatchies, though it seems few would make the decision to humanely put them out of their misery. If this thread is to be considered a decent cross-section of the community, then there are alot of cruel people out there.

 

[ozziepythons]

I do know a couple of large scale (and smaller hobby sized) breeders who amaze me with their absolute willingness to stick it out with either deformed snakes; finicky and non feeders; the ones that come in not healthy and need rehabilitation; specimens that will need life long attention; and specimens that are not going to be breeders. I was wisely told by one breeder that there is much more to learn from such tricky to keep reptiles, more so than from healthy ones that require only general maintenance.

 

[Wookie]

was for 15 years, then the doc said i either had to take lots of supplements of eat red meat once a week, i eat a small portion of beef weekly
its a bit if a struggle for me,...it is after all a disgusting chunk of dead animal muscle,..but i have to admit im alot less tired since i started, and the IBS has improved,..

i agree weak and deformed animals shouldnt be bred, but they can still enjoy a happy life as a pet....so maybe the humans that feel the need to breed everything are the ones who deserve to be culled,....

Glad to hear that . I genuinely am. And I conceed that they could live happily as a pet but, (bar keeping it yourself), you can not be ASSURED it won't be bred. Herein lies the problem. And for some breeders it isn't feasible to keep every deformed animal back as pets. I'm sure during the selective breeding of all the morphs and patterns we have today there would have been quite a few retards, leaving breeders with a shed full of snakes that could live for 20+ years. This is not economically viable and would also take a lot of time and effort.

 

[Minka]

For all the bleeding hearts who seem to want to clutch at straws and make this thread into a moral debate, selling animals with a defect or animals which have failed to thrive despite repeated attempts is unethical. Most new keepers lack the finesse and experinace to persist or re establish problem animals. Selling off weaker/problem animals into certain people's hands isnt necessarily a kinder option than euthanising them.

 

[wokka]

I think it is likely that faults and deformities occur more often in animals of captive origin because we, the keepers, interupt the natural selection which occur in the wild. In the wild deformed animals are "culled" naturally but in captivity we save everything. At what point do you draw the line? No-one want bitey snakes so do they get the thumbs down for bad temperament. A previous post mentioned culling for failing to feed on rodents. A lot of keepers don't want to cull but are happy to pass on the problem to others for free. Does passing on animals with problems only matter if money changes hands? If they are free it is alright? Breeders need to make the hard decisions rather than just passing the problem on down the line and take responsibility for there charges!

 

[ntvnm]

:shock: fusion knows more then you lot put together.

 

[mrs_davo]

Just my two bobs worth, if it is worth anything to anybody.
I would have no problems culling a reptile or any animal for that matter if it was not up to my top standard. The reason I justify this to myself is that I bred them in captivity & are therefor under my control. If something that I bred unnaturaly has a deformity I believe that it is my right to cull the animal from further peril or to avoid some one else breeding with this reptile to increase the problem.

Cheers Ian

 

[mrs_davo]

Lets face it. If this happened in the wild or natural state, these animals would be culled by NATURE.
Cheers again.

 

[Bez84]

Lets face it. If this happened in the wild or natural state, these animals would be culled by NATURE.
Cheers again.

well said.

 

[tc2233]

I breed blue tongues and this year i have ended up with a bluey that has a weak jaw and it only licks its food. I have kept it because i was assuming no one would buy it. I never thought of culling it because i thought it was illegal. Its about half the size that it should be. If anyone wants it give me a pm.

 

[giggle]

I am glad you started this thread

Just the other day I was wondering why people persist with poor doers... going to the ends of the earth to save them... when in reality in the wild they very naturally and very rightly would have perished.

As a breeder of dogs, my aim was to always breed the healthiest animals. This meant, when a bitch needed a caesar due to uterine inertia I had her desexed at the same time and all her progeny was desexed and sold as pets. Any time I have had a fading puppy, I have nutured it and then desexed it and sold it as a pet.

Because desexing reptiles really isnt a realistic option, I think as a responsible breeder culling weak stock is the most responsible and reasonable course of action. The other responsible course of action, would be to keep the weak progeny yourself. That would just be unrealistic, as you would soon have no room to continue breeding. I agree, giving away weak animals is too risky. As a responsible breeder you would be horrified to find out one you entrusted to another had been bred.

I think once we start taking the course of nature into our own hands, we have a responsibility to make sure we are doing so responsibly... and perpetuating weakness is not natural. Personally, I would cull. And I have the highest respect for those that do cull humanely... especially if they are employing a veterinarian for the purpose as this would be an expensive undertaking depending on how many need to be euthanised.

 

[Perko]

Well if we knew who fusion was that might make a difference, i got sent a friend request from him & asked the question. Seems he's just Fusion!!!!! Oh, Fusion, Im Craig Perkins, nothing to hide here.

As for culling animals, i have no problem with it.

:shock: fusion knows more then you lot put together.

 

[mrs_davo]

This is exactly right, & where are the two headed turtles in the wild. Imagine trying to feed a hungry two headed carpet python.
The only reason why color variations exist is because we produce them under our control in captivity.

I am glad you started this thread

Just the other day I was wondering why people persist with poor doers... going to the ends of the earth to save them... when in reality in the wild they very naturally and very rightly would have perished.

As a breeder of dogs, my aim was to always breed the healthiest animals. This meant, when a bitch needed a caesar due to uterine inertia I had her desexed at the same time and all her progeny was desexed and sold as pets. Any time I have had a fading puppy, I have nutured it and then desexed it and sold it as a pet.

Because desexing reptiles really isnt a realistic option, I think as a responsible breeder culling weak stock is the most responsible and reasonable course of action. The other responsible course of action, would be to keep the weak progeny yourself. That would just be unrealistic, as you would soon have no room to continue breeding. I agree, giving away weak animals is too risky. As a responsible breeder you would be horrified to find out one you entrusted to another had been bred.

I think once we start taking the course of nature into our own hands, we have a responsibility to make sure we are doing so responsibly... and perpetuating weakness is not natural. Personally, I would cull. And I have the highest respect for those that do cull humanely... especially if they are employing a veterinarian for the purpose as this would be an expensive undertaking depending on how many need to be euthanised.

 

[dragonboy69]

This thread seems to have separated the sheep from the goats, as such... small time breeders being able to spend the time on a problem feeder, the bigger time breeders choosing not to. I have no worries either way, but it does raise the question in my mind of whether we should be breeding animals if we don't have any time to spend on the individual offspring that are produced? Is it irresponsible to be breeding in such high number that the only choice is to cull the weak, because there's no time to be spent on their rehabilitation? This obviously doesn't apply to deformed animals, but poor feeders or minor deformities like a kinked tail are problems that can be solved with time and effort, or sold as a pet....? Just my thoughts...

well said totally agree

 

[giggle]

Hear hear Kristy! It all boils down to who wants to play god really.

You ARE playing god if you breed. Thats the simple fact. And once you bring those lives into this world, you have a responsibility for each and every one of them.

If you 'rehabilitate' a problem feeder.... and then sell or give that animal away... you are giving away your responsibility!
Which is very unethical, whether the new owner knows about the animals difficulties or not.
If that person then goes on to breed that animal and it further produces even more problem feeders or animals with kinks or whatever the problem happens to be... then you are responsibly for every single one of those babies. What if they are in the hands of someone inexperienced and all those babies suffer as they slowly die. You did that. You caused their suffering.

Unfortunately this is a subject I am incredibly passionate about. So I will try not to sound too harsh. But allowing the opportunity to perpetuate a problem makes you an irresponsible breeder, fullstop. No ifs, buts or maybe. Once you no longer control that animal, it shows you do not care about your responsibility. Clearly those long experienced breeders have learnt that culling is necessary... because you just can not trust the word of other people. And you can't trust them with what is your responsibility.

If you want to rehabilitate animals and nurture the weak... then you need to then keep that animal yourself for the entirety of its life! To do anything else, no matter what kind of fairy dust you sprinkle over it, is unethical.

 

[giggle]

Death is not the worst thing that could happen to an individual.
A painful existence is not something I would want to subject anyone to. Just because their little faces do not contort with the pain of hunger, or the pain of being force fed... does not mean it is not there. Have you ever had spinal problems? Remember the pain of it? Imagine having a kink in your spine.

 

[cris]

If the fault is likely to be genetic i think culling is the best option (this includes jags IMO probably best to leave debating that out of this thread though), if the problem is minor and possibly envirnomentally caused eg. incubation problems or something its a bit more complex. If something appears to be living fine without an apparent hassles but has slight problems due to something like incubation problems(eg. a kinked tail), as far as i know it can most likely reproduce without causing any negative influence to the offspring. So in that case culling would only be ideal if the animal is suffering or not wanted.

I feel more comfortable killing a reptile with problems than a completely healthy rat.