albino jungle

[abbott75]

The other thing is each time you breed a het albino jungle x or albino jungle x back to a jungle, you will not end up with any albino animals. To have any albino offspring there must be an albinoo gene present in both parents. So you could go on doing it as long as you like and you will never get pure or 99.9% pure (whatever) albino jungle! Unless it is a cross!

Have two lines of hets going, when you are satisfied with their purity, cross them together. Magic albinos.

 

[Frozenmouse]

The other thing is each time you breed a het albino jungle x or albino jungle x back to a jungle, you will not end up with any albino animals. To have any albino offspring there must be an albinoo gene present in both parents. So you could go on doing it as long as you like and you will never get pure or 99.9% pure (whatever) albino jungle! Unless it is a cross!

ok you have miss understood the process albino cross normal = 100% het offspring breed these het offspring together you will get some albinos take the albino offspring and repeat. this is how simon developed a line of albinos from blondie a single albino, the whole process is documented on the southern cross reptiles site. exept he used pure darwins in the process, nice ones at that i must say too, some of the best nt s i have seen.

 

[Frozenmouse]

Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
Jason

yes it is illegal to cross species, not subspecies tho.

 

[SnakePower]

ok you have miss understood the process albino cross normal = 100% het offspring breed these het offspring together you will get some albinos take the albino offspring and repeat. this is how simon developed a line of albinos from blondie a single albino, the whole process is documented on the southern cross reptiles site. exept he used pure darwins in the process, nice ones at that i must say too, some of the best nt s i have seen.

No Dabool, I totally understand the process. The point is if you take an albino and create jungle hets, then breed them to become jungle albino crosses, even if you repeat the whole process over a number of times, so taking a 50% jungle albino darwin and breeding back to a jungle, then breeding the offspring (hets) back to each other, they still are partly darwin albino. And breeding them over and over will reduce the % of darwin blood, but the fact remains they will have originated from darwin albino cross jungle stock, they will always have the cross blood in them, even if they are 99% jungle. Can someone else back this statement??

Or maybe I am just dumb and don't understand that crossing albino into jungles will actually make pure albino jungles!!

 

[Frozenmouse]

you said you wont end up with albino animals this is not true at all .. thats what i was outlining i totally agree that the snakes will not be pure albino jungles, that was never up for debate.

 

[Aslan]

Dabool - My understanding is that it is only illegal to cross species in certain states - it definately should be across the board (however, this certainly doesn't stop it occurring) - but my understanding was that this rule was different state to state...

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

And subspecies dont count!!!! As subspecies are not always accepted by some scientists and they are challenged amongst their peers. Cross species are wrong! I beleive people will pay more something that is pretty. Darwin pythons in my opinion are nothing in comparison to Jungles and a cross between the subspecies would make for some interesting High yellow albinos, with a jungle head pattern. It is how it started in the US, offer someone a snake that blows your mind in colouration and you could ask what you want for it!!!!

 

[waruikazi]

We'll just have to wait and see if the high % jungle albinos look better than the 100% darwins. High red albino darwis are going to be hard to beat.

 

[Colin]

No Dabool, I totally understand the process. The point is if you take an albino and create jungle hets, then breed them to become jungle albino crosses, even if you repeat the whole process over a number of times, so taking a 50% jungle albino darwin and breeding back to a jungle, then breeding the offspring (hets) back to each other, they still are partly darwin albino. And breeding them over and over will reduce the % of darwin blood, but the fact remains they will have originated from darwin albino cross jungle stock, they will always have the cross blood in them, even if they are 99% jungle. Can someone else back this statement??

Or maybe I am just dumb and don't understand that crossing albino into jungles will actually make pure albino jungles!!

what you said is correct Zac. These hybrids will always have some darwin blood and never ever be pure jungles again no matter how mant times they are line bred etc.

I just feel sorry for the person the produces the first real pure albino jungle.

 

[indicus]

Albino's occur in most species; so it wouldn't surprise me if they are seen in jungles one day.
As has been expressed the breeder will have to explain how, when, and why?; due to the crossing of morphs we sadly see these days.
I can only hope it's found in the wild and not sourced from a breeder.....least it will remove almost all doubt of it's purity.
It can be argued that all M.s. variegata are genetically the same; and as in this thread; that they haven't 'AS YET' been proven to be different.
So does that then give us an excuse; the right; to prematurely to cross breed animals;
that on the surface appear very different in regards colour, pattern and behaviour....
not to mention animals that have live in extremely different habitats; have different egg sizes and clutch sizes?....I ask you?
Ok, so greed prevails; man and his sick ways decides to take it upon himself to go ahead and breed according to his own needs; showing no respect for the animals IMO. He fools himself into thinking he truly loves and respects the diverse forms which we are lucky to have in Australia....who the hell are you kidding?
What will these keepers say in the future; if, and when; with further research, we may find out; that yes; that they are quite different?.....how observant
Oh sorry...oh well???...some consolation; but yes your right in one aspect; someone will buy it
It can also be argued; that those that line breed for colour and pattern also fail to take into account that they to; have distorted the look of the pure forms as seen the wild; and as such now have created an animal which is tainted. This may very be true.....but the reality is; if these were to be released back into wild stocks (not that it will happen) they in fact, over time, would revert back to the colour forms already expressed by the majority already found within the wild. Keep in mind; more often then not; line breeding brings out the extremities of what's to be found in the wild....it doesn't allow the crossing of to different forms that are far removed from one another ...in habitat, in over all body size, in behaviour, breeding times, clutch sizes etc etc.
IMO; sorry; but i for one believe these breeders are foolish and greedy; showing little regard for the stunning forms and morphs we are already lucky enough to have and work with....lets not even consider all the pure morphs still to be explored as of yet.....
Sad times; when we have some of the best pythons the world has to offer.
So do we have to play follow the leader with countries; that have bugger all to offer; other then hybrids and mongrels?

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

You made some valid points. But i am sure you realise that releasing any reptiles back into the wild will never happen. As it will damage the purity of the gene pool of wild populations. And yes Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product. Take for instance our grains, cattle, sheep, any form of natural produce. Not to mention domesticated animals, that also had their origins from the wild. There is always an argument about this topic. I believe fully that there is much to be said about the taxonomy systems that they use for animals these days. In most cases its a bunch of scientists with overinflated egos that come up with these systems, more than likely wanting to coin a species name. Till genetic studies prove otherwise

 

[richardsc]

yes its possible and getting done,but u just end up with albino mongrels,eg u wont have an albino jungle,it will be an albino darwin crossed with a jungle,also as albinos are popular as a money making thing,those crosses would be further crossed with other subspecies,as a faster option to make returns,not with everyone,but it will be there no doubt,close enough to pure isnt pure,lol,your still looking at mongrels,each to there own though

 

[junglepython2]

Indicus, if your reference to tainted jungles was directed at my earlier comments, I was simply referring to jungle lines that may not be pure and may have been crossed with something else in previous generations. Not to pure lines that have been line bred and now look different to their wild counterparts, I certainly don't consider them to be tainted as I totally agree with what you have just said.

 

[Colin]

Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product.

there is nothing wrong with the natural pure strains of Jungle's and Darwin's. They don't need 'fixing" by hydbridization.

Reptiles are living creatures. Hybridising them is done purely out of greed $$$ and to make money at the detriment of the species. The excuse made overseas for hybridisation of Australian snakes because of the lack of animals to work with does not apply here in Australia

 

[caustichumor]

It seems to me that the reptile keeping hobby is too caught up with breeding "Morphs" (for want of a better word,) the integrity of the genetics comes in second place to what abnormal characteristics can be developed. This thread demonstrates that perfectly, cross an albino NW with something else to intergrate an unnatural genetic trait into a new subspecies. The reptile keeping hobby in Australia should be concentrating on keeping good pure bloodlines. (But as long as Albino's, and all forms of weird morphs bring in the big bucks I can't see that happening) Eventually the American Hobby will find itself with no pure subspecific species at all.

 

[Australis]

There are people who honestly think you can create hybrids, then breed them back to a pure
form!! This i imagine would mean they would sell diluted crosses as "pure"?

Its a worry, when someone can try to attach concepts of purity from domestic animals like goats
to our Native fauna, to justify their actions.

So do we have to play follow the leader with countries; that have bugger all to offer; other then hybrids and mongrels?

I totally agree with you there, i dont think we need to follow every trend
that is happening over seas.
After all we as Australians are keeping our native fauna
enough reason to stand alone, i reckon.
Appreciate the unique fauna we have.

 

[Ramsayi]

Totally agree with Indicus and Colin on this issue.

Once tainted it IS impossible to get back to pure again.As far as pure morphs go at least they are naturallly occurring (even if rarely).Yes people like "eye candy" but this can still be achieved by selective breeding without having to resort to hybridising.

 

[NickM]

it would be a shame if Australia repeated the same mistakes that US keepers made. We have the same situation going on right now with these ridiculouse jaguar carpets. Some breeders are past the 75% mark in their hybrids and literally racing for the highest % crosses. We also see 3 and 4 way intergrades, Things like Diamond/Jungle/Jags and IJ/Jungle/Jags These animinals are a genetic catastrophe.

The biggest problem is not the hybrid morph animals , they are easily avoided. The problem is the normals produced with them,'


When someone makes an 88% jungle albino they will also be making quite a few 88% jungle hybrids that are normal, all of wich will look exactly like pure jungles.

Since nobody will want the crossed normals they get sold cheaply and sooner or later they magically become "pure" jungles again.

This happens every day over here and its getting worse every day. Hybrid breeders will always make the same tired excuses about "honestly representing the hybrids" but the reality is that they WILL be mis-represtened at some point, either on purpose or by mistake.

Nick

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

There is clearly a miss coception as to what is available overseas???? It is possible to source more locality specific animals in the overseas market. It is also done legally. The australian reptile community does also not care about buying snakes on someones word that they are pure of provenance. There are few keepers out there that can actually say where they collected their animals and there are even less that can say they bred a snake with another snake that was caught in their natural occuring range. The truth of the matter is that these animals will never be released back into the wild, under no circumastances. Name one example in australia where captive bred stock was released back into the wild. And as for market value, I dont see anyone complaining about paying for some of the mongrel GTPs that are flooding the market????? Makes you think does'nt it. How many people on this forum has bought snakes from a breeder who said an animal was pure??? Take someones word of mouth, unfortunately very few people know exactly where their animals come from. Because someone says its from a specific region does not mean they are telling the truth. As for hybrids, People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin. As long as the breeder is honest about the origin of the animals. The truth is that a cross between a Jungle and a darwin looks exactly like a jungle!!!! They are actually prettier than a straight jungle, and if the mother was high yellow then the babies are even brighter at around the 6 month mark. And i can also see that these could be confused with true jungles. But each to their own. If a person keeps any type of animal in captivity then they are playing God.

 

[Frozenmouse]

You made some valid points. But i am sure you realise that releasing any reptiles back into the wild will never happen. As it will damage the purity of the gene pool of wild populations. And yes Humans have taken it upon themselves to cross different races, strains, species etc to produce a higher quility of product. Take for instance our grains, cattle, sheep, any form of natural produce. Not to mention domesticated animals, that also had their origins from the wild. There is always an argument about this topic. I believe fully that there is much to be said about the taxonomy systems that they use for animals these days. In most cases its a bunch of scientists with overinflated egos that come up with these systems, more than likely wanting to coin a species name. Till genetic studies prove otherwise

i know of people that have lost jungles,coastals,ect,ect, in areas which have heavy populations natural populations of NT carpets. i am sure this happens on the east coast too so to think there are many pure wild snakes left is is madness exept in the most remote places.