albino jungle
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Im very much in agreeance with Bwana, and Indicus, .
NickM, and B-Factors, opinions from their experience
with this issue in North America speaks volumes
about where we shouldnt want to end up.
So Morelia_Hunter, why do you avoid the issues
raised in this thread?
NickM, and B-Factors, opinions from their experience
with this issue in North America speaks volumes
about where we shouldnt want to end up.
So Morelia_Hunter, why do you avoid the issues
raised in this thread?
ihaveherps
Well-Known Member
What a caulker of a thread !
"because i grew up in a different country than you and have different views on life and how things are done does not make me wrong"
what a great arguement that statement raises.... those South Africans had heaps of brilliant ideas, that apartheid one was a cracker!
MH, your hybrid vigour arguement has no validity, as after F1 offspring are bred together, the whole hybrid vigour concept is thrown out the window.
In another thread you also stated that breeding hypo melanistics to albinos would be an interesting combination.... I can see the way that breeding a reduced melanin animal into a line of animals that is unable to produce melanin at all, as being a giant step forward in the future of the albino hybrid morphs.
All in all, the best thing the purists can do is to keep slugging out these sorts of threads in the forums... for every newbie that stumbles across a similar thread, has half a brain, comprehends the arguement ( would say arguements, but as shown in this thread there is only one side with any informed substance to back thier stance ) and chooses to avoid these mongrels, is a positive. Every single person counts when it comes to these sorts of matters, as without punters the value falls out of the mutt market, which from what i understand from the hybrid lovers point of view in here, is their only solid motivation.
"because i grew up in a different country than you and have different views on life and how things are done does not make me wrong"
what a great arguement that statement raises.... those South Africans had heaps of brilliant ideas, that apartheid one was a cracker!
MH, your hybrid vigour arguement has no validity, as after F1 offspring are bred together, the whole hybrid vigour concept is thrown out the window.
In another thread you also stated that breeding hypo melanistics to albinos would be an interesting combination.... I can see the way that breeding a reduced melanin animal into a line of animals that is unable to produce melanin at all, as being a giant step forward in the future of the albino hybrid morphs.
All in all, the best thing the purists can do is to keep slugging out these sorts of threads in the forums... for every newbie that stumbles across a similar thread, has half a brain, comprehends the arguement ( would say arguements, but as shown in this thread there is only one side with any informed substance to back thier stance ) and chooses to avoid these mongrels, is a positive. Every single person counts when it comes to these sorts of matters, as without punters the value falls out of the mutt market, which from what i understand from the hybrid lovers point of view in here, is their only solid motivation.
BROWNS
Very Well-Known Member
I've never really been against cross breeding carpets but am against proper hybrids such as crossing different species not sub species such as bredli with a coastal etc etc.Even though in many states all carpets are recognised as one species such as M.S.Variagata in Victoria but most of us still can clearly tell the difference between a Murray Darling and a jungle or those compared to a coastal etc etc,the problem i see coming in the future is when it gets like overseas with animals such as corn snakes that come in every colour of the rainbow and are now as cheap as chips!!!Most people entering the hobby as newbies who just want a pet snake will most certainly go for a $50 albino x evrything and anything over a pure childrens or coastal and in time these will become more and more rare to find in the wild in their natural habitat and the care for keeping species pure will be lost to those just wanting a pretty coloured snake.
Don't get me wrong i'm all for a stunning looking snake but when you start crossing albino Darwins with every sub species of carpet before people have even had a chance to get the time to breed pure albino darwins back to each other yet which is only just possible recently seeing as they have only been bred for very few years and we haven't even tried to find out what can come from breeding an albino Darwin to say a striped Darwin or a hypo darwin or a hyper darwin and any other oddball darwins around like theghost darwins and we've already seen the paradox form which came from the original line and other possibilities that could arise such as snows which can still happen and be pure if someone happens to produce an axanthic darwin i think it is more greed and money orientated than anything else crossing them with everything you can think of just to see what you get and they will become so numerous and the value of them will drop dramatically in a short time.The herp industry is expanding rapidly with huge numbers entering the hobby anew every day i think it's going to be a shame when they go into a pet shop in years to come and say i want that pretty yellow and red/orange spotted carpet snake not havin a clue what species it is nor caring what species it is.Why not go for the morphs but still keep it pure?Sure it's going to take a little longer but what's the big rush if money isn't the main motivator???As i've already said the potential to produce pure albino morphs is there and i'm sure being worked on by some as we speak but i would hate to go to buy an albino and not have a clue what species it is and if it is pure or crossed.I'm sure even if crossed with certain jungles many will still look like the pure form so i'm sure as is done with many other crosses there will always be dishonest people who misrepresent their animals which passes on down the line and therein lies the problem.I've always said if you are going to cross breed and sell the offspring they should be advertised as exactly what they are,such as the het alino jungle crosses which may have hybrid vigour but will their offspring which are the ones being bred for the albinos have hybrid vigour and be any brighter yellow than the original pure form.There's some pretty intense red and orange coloured Darwins out there as well as striped and hypos etc etc that will or should produce albinos with both stunning colours and patterns as there's already quite a lot of variety in the original pure albinos as we've seen including the paradox form.Who knows what that will produce when bred to a hyper or hypo etc etc.Wouldn't it be more challenging to try breeding morphs and keeping it pure rather than just throwing an albino over any old carpet which any 5 year old could do???It's not exactly rocket science breeding carpets but there would be more of a challenge as a herpetologist trying to breed albino morphs and keeping them pure working with what we already have????
Now getting to the nitty gritty of keeping it pure and talking about escapees.If we really really want to keep things pure not just in the hobby but more importantly in the wild shouldn't we all only keep species native to our area so that if there is an escapee the wild population has no chance of being tainted as i'm sure has already happened in some places.I don't think there'd be too many long term herpers who've not had an escapee never to be found again??I know i've had it happen and know of may others which could be more of a contributor to the purity of our wild stock than say cross breeding within the hobby and honestly representing these crosses selling them as exactly what they are??We wouldn't be able to keep much then would we?
I'd like to know or hear peoples thoughts on that as it's just as valid an arguement for keeping it pure in the wild where it counts most as it is to crossbreeding withinh the hobby!My guess is that hopefully nature would correct a mistake such as an escapee bredli in jungle territory breding and having viable offspring that only a few of will survive and eventually will return back to pure or would it?Same as keeping non Aussie greens that don't even originate from this country,what if someone keeping Indonesian greens who lives in Iron Range or Green Python country/habitat has an escapee and it breeds with our pure wild stock which could very easily happen as people successfully breed them together in captivity,why wouldn't they not breed in the wild and what sort of problems would that then cause???
So should we be allowed the priveledge of keeping non locality animals to the many varied localities we all live in?
As for crossing albinos i would love to see them kept pure for some time and eventually see what morphs can be bred from pure lines rather than simply crossing as it's not really a new morph,you're just putting an already existing morph across a regular animal of a different sub species which we all know the differences between wether there are dna markers to prove it yet or not and if it is eventually proved it's already too late then isn't it.I can't really see it as greed crossbreeding regular sub species as it's generally frowned upon and the animals sell very cheap but when you're talking albinos that's another story!!!
Don't get me wrong i'm all for a stunning looking snake but when you start crossing albino Darwins with every sub species of carpet before people have even had a chance to get the time to breed pure albino darwins back to each other yet which is only just possible recently seeing as they have only been bred for very few years and we haven't even tried to find out what can come from breeding an albino Darwin to say a striped Darwin or a hypo darwin or a hyper darwin and any other oddball darwins around like theghost darwins and we've already seen the paradox form which came from the original line and other possibilities that could arise such as snows which can still happen and be pure if someone happens to produce an axanthic darwin i think it is more greed and money orientated than anything else crossing them with everything you can think of just to see what you get and they will become so numerous and the value of them will drop dramatically in a short time.The herp industry is expanding rapidly with huge numbers entering the hobby anew every day i think it's going to be a shame when they go into a pet shop in years to come and say i want that pretty yellow and red/orange spotted carpet snake not havin a clue what species it is nor caring what species it is.Why not go for the morphs but still keep it pure?Sure it's going to take a little longer but what's the big rush if money isn't the main motivator???As i've already said the potential to produce pure albino morphs is there and i'm sure being worked on by some as we speak but i would hate to go to buy an albino and not have a clue what species it is and if it is pure or crossed.I'm sure even if crossed with certain jungles many will still look like the pure form so i'm sure as is done with many other crosses there will always be dishonest people who misrepresent their animals which passes on down the line and therein lies the problem.I've always said if you are going to cross breed and sell the offspring they should be advertised as exactly what they are,such as the het alino jungle crosses which may have hybrid vigour but will their offspring which are the ones being bred for the albinos have hybrid vigour and be any brighter yellow than the original pure form.There's some pretty intense red and orange coloured Darwins out there as well as striped and hypos etc etc that will or should produce albinos with both stunning colours and patterns as there's already quite a lot of variety in the original pure albinos as we've seen including the paradox form.Who knows what that will produce when bred to a hyper or hypo etc etc.Wouldn't it be more challenging to try breeding morphs and keeping it pure rather than just throwing an albino over any old carpet which any 5 year old could do???It's not exactly rocket science breeding carpets but there would be more of a challenge as a herpetologist trying to breed albino morphs and keeping them pure working with what we already have????
Now getting to the nitty gritty of keeping it pure and talking about escapees.If we really really want to keep things pure not just in the hobby but more importantly in the wild shouldn't we all only keep species native to our area so that if there is an escapee the wild population has no chance of being tainted as i'm sure has already happened in some places.I don't think there'd be too many long term herpers who've not had an escapee never to be found again??I know i've had it happen and know of may others which could be more of a contributor to the purity of our wild stock than say cross breeding within the hobby and honestly representing these crosses selling them as exactly what they are??We wouldn't be able to keep much then would we?
I'd like to know or hear peoples thoughts on that as it's just as valid an arguement for keeping it pure in the wild where it counts most as it is to crossbreeding withinh the hobby!My guess is that hopefully nature would correct a mistake such as an escapee bredli in jungle territory breding and having viable offspring that only a few of will survive and eventually will return back to pure or would it?Same as keeping non Aussie greens that don't even originate from this country,what if someone keeping Indonesian greens who lives in Iron Range or Green Python country/habitat has an escapee and it breeds with our pure wild stock which could very easily happen as people successfully breed them together in captivity,why wouldn't they not breed in the wild and what sort of problems would that then cause???
So should we be allowed the priveledge of keeping non locality animals to the many varied localities we all live in?
As for crossing albinos i would love to see them kept pure for some time and eventually see what morphs can be bred from pure lines rather than simply crossing as it's not really a new morph,you're just putting an already existing morph across a regular animal of a different sub species which we all know the differences between wether there are dna markers to prove it yet or not and if it is eventually proved it's already too late then isn't it.I can't really see it as greed crossbreeding regular sub species as it's generally frowned upon and the animals sell very cheap but when you're talking albinos that's another story!!!
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Morelia_Hunter
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Ihaveherps when you know something about my countries politics make a statement please. You aussies had the white law policy in Australia but this is not a political discussion so please. Indicus, you still take on my views on breeding subspecies of carpetpython to each other, just remember that this is unfortunately only a small part of what reptile keeping is about. You dont know me from a bar of soap and you are making a judgement call on my herpetological view points form a thread run on the internet???? And because your opinion is different you think you are going to bash me into taking your viewpoints, get real mate!!! I have never said that i will be indiscrimanate about what i will do with the offspring or that i would sell any to anbody under the pretences of what they are. I do not prey on newbies and carpet pythons are not the only things that i breed. I have been involved in the high end morph breeding of pythons for almost 15 years now. Even before albinos were available in Australia. I have seen it take off overseas and have worked in that market in more than one or 2 countires. This does not make me an expert but broaden my views on the whole thing. I have never just thrown animals together to breed as you so clearly think i do!!!!! You would be a fool to think that. Everything has always been in a highly controlled environment. I know the hassle in selling animals to people that are out of their depth, i dont sell sick animals, and i screen people when they buy animals from me. I make sure they acquire the right books and information on the species involved even before their purchase it. And by the way, i have not sold one hybrid to anyone ever. So judge me now. I have not made one cent out of breeding hybrids!!! Maybe in 3 years from now, but until then none of them will leave my snake room.
indicus
Very Well-Known Member
Still MH; you will not comment on how we avoid contaminating pure lines with these crosses
in the near future...(if not already)
I'm sure all those newbie's; who purchase your hybrids/crosses; will remember what exactly they have; when the novelty of owning a pretty snake (not that all of them will be) when they in turn sell them on?
So i now conclude; you have not put any thought in regards your 'FUTURE' actions; which sorry mate; shows a blatant disregard for the unique Morelia we already have to work with; as far as I'm concerned.
Can you now put your selfish motivations aside for a minute; and please think about it; for one minute; before shooting your mouth off.
H ....OWWWW.....CAAAANN....WEEEE....CONNNTROLLL .....THHHEEE......PROBLLLEMMMMSSS; ......THAAAT MAAAY....ARRRISEE.......FROOOMMMM.....BREEEEDING.....THESSSE........HYYYBRRRIDS...?????
Sorry for the sarcasm (slow enough for you?); It is apparent by your posts; you have nothing to offer....as far as controlling these mongrels you wish to, aim to; have bred.
This thread alone; high-lights to those in the department; that we now have real problems within the industry; with the introduction of these animals.
I can only hope; pressure is put upon them to control the spread of these snakes; by yourself and others!!!
I wish you all the best; hopefully you will 'at least' put some thought into it.
in the near future...(if not already)
I'm sure all those newbie's; who purchase your hybrids/crosses; will remember what exactly they have; when the novelty of owning a pretty snake (not that all of them will be) when they in turn sell them on?
So i now conclude; you have not put any thought in regards your 'FUTURE' actions; which sorry mate; shows a blatant disregard for the unique Morelia we already have to work with; as far as I'm concerned.
Can you now put your selfish motivations aside for a minute; and please think about it; for one minute; before shooting your mouth off.
H ....OWWWW.....CAAAANN....WEEEE....CONNNTROLLL .....THHHEEE......PROBLLLEMMMMSSS; ......THAAAT MAAAY....ARRRISEE.......FROOOMMMM.....BREEEEDING.....THESSSE........HYYYBRRRIDS...?????
Sorry for the sarcasm (slow enough for you?); It is apparent by your posts; you have nothing to offer....as far as controlling these mongrels you wish to, aim to; have bred.
This thread alone; high-lights to those in the department; that we now have real problems within the industry; with the introduction of these animals.
I can only hope; pressure is put upon them to control the spread of these snakes; by yourself and others!!!
I wish you all the best; hopefully you will 'at least' put some thought into it.
Colin
morelia
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Until three years?
I thought they were going to be available this season by this PM from 14th August 2007 that says:
private message: Aug-07
private message reply 14-Aug-07, 12:11 PM :Colin said:
Morelia_Hunter said:
So will these hybrids be sold this season for $6,000 a pair or not ?
Not that I'm interested in buying these hybrids. I'm just curious
thanks
lector
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You must admit at 6 grand a pair there is a fair incentive for people out there to just buy one and cross it back over a darwin.That must be how hes controling the problems that arise from breeding hybrids.
After a few years just assume that they r all hybrids and that way only big breeders who are trusted will sell them at going prices
After a few years just assume that they r all hybrids and that way only big breeders who are trusted will sell them at going prices
MH, I dont think anyone here is trying to change your mind.
In a free country you have the right to disagree with people. Just as you had the right to post about you hybrid carpets, other have th right to disagree with you publicly. You must take the positive with the negative.
This is an arguement that you cant win, the simple fact is that the animals you created WILL cause problems in the future, this is not an opinion its a well proven fact.
If you know that what you are doing will cuase problems for others in the future, how can you defend doing it.
This is an ethical issue what you are ultimatley saying is that you DONT CARE if your animals cause problems in the future.
I am in the US and have to deal with the results of this kind of thinking everyday.
Nick
In a free country you have the right to disagree with people. Just as you had the right to post about you hybrid carpets, other have th right to disagree with you publicly. You must take the positive with the negative.
This is an arguement that you cant win, the simple fact is that the animals you created WILL cause problems in the future, this is not an opinion its a well proven fact.
If you know that what you are doing will cuase problems for others in the future, how can you defend doing it.
This is an ethical issue what you are ultimatley saying is that you DONT CARE if your animals cause problems in the future.
I am in the US and have to deal with the results of this kind of thinking everyday.
Nick
Browns :ve never really been against cross breeding carpets but am against proper hybrids such as crossing different species not sub species such as bredli with a coastal etc etc.Even though in many states all carpets are recognised as one species such as M.S.Variagata in Victoria but most of us still can clearly tell the difference between a Murray Darling and a jungle or those compared to a coastal etc
Its all about the finer things mate,a diamond compared to a carpet or jungle genetically might be hardly detectable genetically but thats the whole point,it makes them highly adaptable in nature because they can change quickly and easy to cross breed in captivity.I was on a popular morelia site the other day and had a look at what coastal carpet stock a prominent US seller had and there was onley a few that were anything like coastals,most looked like jungles or darwins,its not someting we need here.The argument that comes forward from overseas is the that they got them off a breeder that said they were such and such and that same excuse gets thrown about here lately,each type of morelia has the features to which it was described.
Its all about the finer things mate,a diamond compared to a carpet or jungle genetically might be hardly detectable genetically but thats the whole point,it makes them highly adaptable in nature because they can change quickly and easy to cross breed in captivity.I was on a popular morelia site the other day and had a look at what coastal carpet stock a prominent US seller had and there was onley a few that were anything like coastals,most looked like jungles or darwins,its not someting we need here.The argument that comes forward from overseas is the that they got them off a breeder that said they were such and such and that same excuse gets thrown about here lately,each type of morelia has the features to which it was described.
Colin
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From a (hybrid albino jungle) x (hybrid het albino)
and clutch size of (lets say) 16
assuming 8 are hybrid albinos and 8 hybrid hets
8 x $3000 each = $24,000
8 x $1500 each = $12,000 $36,000
and / or
From a (hybrid albino jungle) x (hybrid albino jungle)
and clutch size of (lets say) 16
16 $3000 each = $48,000
I suppose...
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Morelia_Hunter
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By making sure that they are not sold to newbies as i do not deal with newbies. I have ever only sold animals to individuals who i feel are capable of maintaining the animals correctly. And this is a fact.
I'll just add this bit of a PM that Colin sent me this year to just show what a hypocrit he really is seeing that this thread is turning into an attack on peoples opinions and stand points.
any chance of some pics please? I'd be interested to see what they look like. I may be interested early next year, but really need to see what they come out like. my email is [email protected]
thanks
Colin
My views have always been the same regardless of what species is in question, I have never sold Iguanas, Burmese pythons or reticulated pythons to anyone new to the hobby. Just to use examples. Indicus- My feelings toward your unique wildlife fauna is not much different to yours. The only view that is different is that i believe fully that animals bred by private keepers in their house shed or snake room will never see the wild again. To let people think they will be is misleading. A person of your knowledge and experience should know that!!! You keep attacking my views and opinions to achieve what??? You try to belittle me on public forum to achieve what???? But just to make you look like the clown that you are. Clearly you know the exact origin of each of your animals and this must mean that you have quite a bit to lose if i start producing animals that looks better and is more hardier than yours. I have nothing to offer to this pathetic attack on my opinions and view points, you are correct!!!!
I'll just add this bit of a PM that Colin sent me this year to just show what a hypocrit he really is seeing that this thread is turning into an attack on peoples opinions and stand points.
any chance of some pics please? I'd be interested to see what they look like. I may be interested early next year, but really need to see what they come out like. my email is [email protected]
thanks
Colin
My views have always been the same regardless of what species is in question, I have never sold Iguanas, Burmese pythons or reticulated pythons to anyone new to the hobby. Just to use examples. Indicus- My feelings toward your unique wildlife fauna is not much different to yours. The only view that is different is that i believe fully that animals bred by private keepers in their house shed or snake room will never see the wild again. To let people think they will be is misleading. A person of your knowledge and experience should know that!!! You keep attacking my views and opinions to achieve what??? You try to belittle me on public forum to achieve what???? But just to make you look like the clown that you are. Clearly you know the exact origin of each of your animals and this must mean that you have quite a bit to lose if i start producing animals that looks better and is more hardier than yours. I have nothing to offer to this pathetic attack on my opinions and view points, you are correct!!!!
Colin
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I'm afraid my version of my PM does not read exactly the same as yours MH. :lol: But no matter.
The only reason I ever contacted you in the first place was to see if you had these hybrids and how much they were being sold for. The people that know me, know I'm not interested in any hybrids at all, so there was never any intent on my part to buy anything from you whatsoever.
I only contacted you to find out if you were breeding these albino hybrids and how much they were being sold for. thats all.
And I'm not really interested in buying any animals from you even if it was of 'pure' bloodline thanks all the same.
As for being hypocritical, I think the noose has already tightened but it's not around my neck :lol:
all the best
The only reason I ever contacted you in the first place was to see if you had these hybrids and how much they were being sold for. The people that know me, know I'm not interested in any hybrids at all, so there was never any intent on my part to buy anything from you whatsoever.
I only contacted you to find out if you were breeding these albino hybrids and how much they were being sold for. thats all.
And I'm not really interested in buying any animals from you even if it was of 'pure' bloodline thanks all the same.
As for being hypocritical, I think the noose has already tightened but it's not around my neck :lol:
all the best
indicus
Very Well-Known Member
Very well said Nick; your posts; and others; have given those that dont comprehend or fully understand; a first-hand insight into the problems; seen in the U.S reptile industry; and have simply sum'ed up my thoughts exactly.
At fear of repeating myself.....
MH....You started of quite well; that's a start; you wont sell to those new to the hobby.
How exactly will you know that they are not new to the industry or not?;
Will this also make the difference; in regards to the hybridizing of locality form animals?
I'm glad we may at least; on some level; share similar views regarding the unique fauna to be found here.....
You must know then; why this is an issue; that has to be addressed; better sooner then later.
To simply allow those to breed and trade in hybrids; will cause mis-representation; and the eventual
crossing of all forms of Morelia....soon; determining traits expressed by locality forms will be impossible.
At present; it's already hard enough; and in a lot of cases; could be considered impossible.
Most of the commonly seen lines in this country; do express traits seen in the wild;
not to mention that the locality data on some of these lines; can be traced to founder populations.
Lets hope you are right; in the fact; it may be a long time before Morelia are seen to be released into the wild.
Hopefully due to this countries diverse habitat; habitat often which is fragmented;
may allow there always to be isolated populations of locality form Morelia to exist;
un-touched by the influences of man.
I do however; not cherish the thought of seeing a obvious hybrid/ thing; in someone's yard....
will I be able to tell?; as you yourself have expressed; in most cases; probably not.
As your so sure; the release of Morelia may never happen in any degree;
the relevance however; should be; may the need arise; we can have/or obtain; suitable founder stock.
Given the fact that you have seen the problems that does exist overseas; regarding hybrids;
I would have imagined that; you would have discussed this issue with others?
It's not a matter of 'attacking you' or 'be-littleing you'; rather; questioning you.
I'm also sure; you would have put some 'for-thought' into ways we could control/manage the breeding of hybrids?;
Can you at all; offer any solutions which can be discussed?....or can I safely assume; that I'm wasting my time?
Since you question my 'lines'; yes I do have; in most cases;
fairly good locality data; on most of my original animals .....what do you wish to know?
I'll be more then happy to help you where I can.
MH; This is NOT a competition; and I'm happy if you produce something your happy with; good for you mate.
I do however differ in the view; of breeding hybrids....surely you can at least see why; myself and others are concerned.
Yes I can be considered a clown at times; not good at it I see; as you don't seem to be laughing.....I apologise.
Don't spit the dummy MH; it's all good.....
You would do better not to 'be-little' yourself; by means of your own conduct; and 'lack of'; sound reasoning....
To show you do care; about our locality Morelia; It would be most beneficial; if you could or would; discuss ways;
in which you may have thought; to control the keeping/ breeding of hybrids in Australia.
Other then hybrid animals being hardier; as you elude to; what other reasons is it of a benefit to create hybrids?
Will this impact on wild populations?; what benefit is it to wild stocks? ....so many questions; so little answers.
Can you point out any discussion; on other sites; that may help one form an opinion?
If you wish to not answer any of these 'relevant' questions.... I'll understand;
as there doesn't seem to any easy solution in the foreseeable future.....does there.
All the best
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