albino jungle

[whatsup]

didn't they release some womas somewhere in south oz not long ago?

 

[rockman]

I thought someone was already breeding a albino male carpet with everything else ( carpets ) , to produce something different ( ie : money ) , this year .
I heard it was darwin x everything . LOL
Maybe it was an acciadent , you know , my snake got out and shagged everything else in the room and then put its self back in the cage .LOL
Be fun to see what happens to these animals .
Cheers

 

[cement]

There is clearly a miss coception as to what is available overseas???? It is possible to source more locality specific animals in the overseas market. It is also done legally. The australian reptile community does also not care about buying snakes on someones word that they are pure of provenance. There are few keepers out there that can actually say where they collected their animals and there are even less that can say they bred a snake with another snake that was caught in their natural occuring range.

This may be a case of the Aus marketplace being a youngster. Most people who want a snake for a pet don't know anything about provenence or purity, they just want a snake.
If your not buying on someones word, whats your options, get a DNA test, I don't know of anyone who has done that. Is that the way to go? Can I get a certificate certifying my pair of BHPs are actually Pilbarra? I know the breeder is a well respected breeder and his word is all I had to go on.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

And where did they collect the Mary river turtle from???? Come on give me a better example. When animals are actually collected from a given area with the purpose of releasing their offspring back into the wild its different. Its controlled and scientific. Show me this type of control when it comes to collecting for the reptile hobby. If the animals are represented for what they are, Designer snakes then I cant see any issues arrising.

 

[indicus]

Is their any positive with breeding Morelia hybrids?; if, please tell me?
IMO the only positive; is for the breeders pockets; not to mention his/her desire;
to have something different; hopefully beautiful (understandable); but sadly seems to be the case; saleable.
How could it by any means be beneficial for the animals in question? both in captivity and in the wild?
I'm sure all those who have a passion in reptiles can appreciate a stunning specimen;
whether it be a hybrid or not.....but at the risk of tainting all those in the hobby?; or the wild for that matter;
I'd like to think not.
In all fairness, there are many that could be viewed as being 'short sighted'.....

Why would you not think reptiles; 'never be released back into the wild?'
I myself have taken part in a JCU breeding program; to restock Boyd's into the wild...
Was this breeding program of any use to the Boyd's population; maybe not, maybe so; either way it's a step in the right direction.
Surely we have all seen that captive breeding/propagation has been used to restock and replenish all forms of flora and fauna;
for many years both in Australia and overseas .....turn on a TV or read a newspaper.
Admittedly we as Australians could be considered 'lucky' in comparison to other parts of the world...can we learn from others mistakes?; maybe not.
One can only hope; with careful management; we as reptile breeders/keepers; can as a industry/hobby;
be able to put the welfare of our reptiles foremost; for the benefit of all concerned wild or captive; for now and for future generations.
Do we have a responsibility as keepers towards educating the public of the importance of keeping our lines pure to the best of our ability;
or do we flog off more designer hybrid's; to finance further experimentation?....would this not increase the chances of confusing already tainted so called pure lines?....We can all see that there are in fact many forms of Morelia that have been distorted/tainted/hybridised to some degree; should we then continue to make the same mistakes?; as we are responsible now and for the future for all those that share our fascination/passion.
It's interesting to note, that zoo's are held accountable for they way they display their animals and the information they supply; so we are not?
What about petshops?; how many times have we been seen to 'slam' some of them for poor husbandry?;
or having supplied a new keeper with a pet that maybe of poor standard?....not to mention wingding that they need better educated staff.
We out way both industries in terms of the numbers of keepers and the collective size of our collections;
so 'yes'; I believe we do have a responsibility towards educating the public; and do play an important role in conservation and species management.

Do we have any pure lines left in the hobby?
You can rest assured that there are a lot of breeders in this country that strive to keep their lines pure to the best of their ability.....that's a start
Do you not think that some those keepers that declared reptiles on the NSW amnesty; wouldn't know where their lines originated?.......
Where do you think a lot of it came from?
What about those old school keepers that have been breeding since the 70's?;
Do i take the word of some old keeper; who knows where he collected his line; or maybe i stand a better chance that a newbie clearly remembers; that he has in fact bred eg: a Jungle x Darwin over a Diamond x Bredli cross.....yes i can see how we stand a better chance; honesty prevailing.
Don't you think that some of those governing bodies who's forward thinking; have allowed wild collecting to a certain degree....helped
us towards obtaining suitable founder stock; that does in fact allow for good locality data towards some species now seen to be firmly established in captivity.
Shame more morelia haven't been collected hey? however it does open the door; so who knows....we may very well obtain more pure lines.

"I don't see anyone complaining about paying for some of the mongrel GTPs that are flooding the market????? Makes you think doesn't it."
What choice has there been for those wishing to obtain a GTP?.....does that make it right?; probably not;
but we can live in hope that more pure lines are developed over time.....and yes i agree; 'greed' does prevail in some cases; doesn't it?
- "People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin"
"a cross between a Jungle and a Darwin looks exactly like a jungle"......great; another reason we should be happy to embrace the idea of breeding hybrids.
"Till genetic studies prove otherwise".....some of us will endeavour to breed as many different hybrids as we can; sound reasoning; very responsible....well done.

I find it interesting that if; eg: a member of the public kills a snake; or a kid finds one in his garden; then keeps it in a fish tank; more often then not; they are deemed irresponsible and get hammered on the forums.....yet those that openly admit to breed various hybrids and create freaks for financial gain; are accepted for the most part; considering the future implications that could very well change the face of how we see reptiles in captivity or worse still in the wild.....
Odd to say the least......food for thought; isn't it?... As has been expressed; each to their own.

 

[Colin]

I thought someone was already breeding a albino male carpet with everything else ( carpets ) , to produce something different ( ie : money ) , this year .
I heard it was darwin x everything.

Yeah I heard the same. (imo) Its all about greed nothing else, no matter whatever spin they try and put on it. It's definitely not about the welfare of our Australian native reptiles that's for sure.

I agree with indicus.

 

[Colin]

it would be a shame if Australia repeated the same mistakes that US keepers made. We have the same situation going on right now with these ridiculouse jaguar carpets. Some breeders are past the 75% mark in their hybrids and literally racing for the highest % crosses. We also see 3 and 4 way intergrades, Things like Diamond/Jungle/Jags and IJ/Jungle/Jags These animinals are a genetic catastrophe.

The biggest problem is not the hybrid morph animals , they are easily avoided. The problem is the normals produced with them,'


When someone makes an 88% jungle albino they will also be making quite a few 88% jungle hybrids that are normal, all of wich will look exactly like pure jungles.

Since nobody will want the crossed normals they get sold cheaply and sooner or later they magically become "pure" jungles again.

This happens every day over here and its getting worse every day. Hybrid breeders will always make the same tired excuses about "honestly representing the hybrids" but the reality is that they WILL be mis-represtened at some point, either on purpose or by mistake.

Nick

Read that waruikazi. Thats what Nick (from USA) has to say about these mongrel hybrids. Once its done its too late to turn back. And there is a big difference breeding jungle x jungle for pattern and colour etc and darwin x jungle.

The problem is hybrids polluting the captive pure animals. What happens when these hybrids (that may look very much like pure animals) get sold a few times and end up in someones collection, polluting their captive stock.

Thers no sour grapes sport. I have albinos and over 15 Jungles and if I wanted, I could cross them myself. But thankfully I don't.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Its funny how all the keepers with albinos say that making hybrids are for monetary benefit when clearly they are of a lesser quality than pure forms. So how will they be making money??? Good little contradiction. On the other hand if the public likes the look of these highly colourful different animals then they might even be more popular than the pure lines. I would like to know what these eco warriors are going to charge the government for animals to release back into the wild or if they would just help them out with a couple of hundred animals??? They will never release snakes and especially pythons back into the wild as there would be a risk of introducing diseases lik IBD and opmv. I would know this as i have helped out with quite a few environmental impact studies. For animals to be released back into wild populations they would be harvested from an area, put in a guarantene facility away from others and then years down the line be re introduced. Get real!!!!! As for the Boyds, they were probably kept in pits out doors in their natural habitat and had no contact with ones that were sourced out of captivity??? Am i right. At the end of the day i would like to see snow, patternless, axantic, reduced pattern, hypo etc. type albinos and normal carpet pythons on the market. This will keep the hobby interesting like all the colourful snakes and morphs have done in overseas collections!!!! Maybe even coastals will become popular if they are in an albino form. A 4metre python that white, Beautiful!!!

 

[indicus]

MH; why have you have avoided most of my questions?.
Either way; you have pointed out to us numerous times in this thread alone; that your in it for yourself;
by your need/or want; to produce 'stunners' hybrids; freaks; yes that's right....why again; cash?.
You yourself; have clearly demonstrated; to show little compassion for our unique fauna; and even elude to the fact that all those keepers entering the reptile industry; are just interested purchasing your hybrid's; because they don't know any better, and want of a stunning snake........give me a break!!!!; don't be-little us all.
I guess it's more important to be greed driven hey?....rather then show some sound reasoning and be responsible for ones actions? considering the mistakes countries have made regarding their species.
You now inform me you have taken part in impact studies....OMG!!!! is all I can say.
Mate; never say never.....we have seen the captive breeding and release of many species; regardless of the issue of disease.....take all the different bird species; our cute and cuddlies etc etc....
Hopefully our herps are in better standing; call us lucky at this stage....not for long by the look of it.
If you for a moment think that your argument is sound (in the best interests of our reptile industry; and those to found within the wild)..... I'll leave that for others to speculate....after all we are all entitle to our opinion; even though we may have to agree to disagree.
You can only imagine what I think.
Ones thing is certain; as time progresses; I am sure we will follow down the path of the U.S.A etc; in regards to morphs; trends etc..which probably wont be avoided.....this mentality only proves it IMO.
You may now stand proud; to know that you may even be remembered as one of those that helped get us there....Good for you mate; good luck.
P.S But please do continue with your rambling's; i do for one find it interesting

 

[PilbaraPythons]

The hard reality remains that this is not an ideal world and people do regularly have snakes escape into the wild. This in my opinion is a price to high to allow the selfish practice. There are many examples of vulnerable, fragmented areas of habitat that can easily become tainted by escapes e.g. the small pockets of rainforest scattered around Innisfail.

As for the view that people in Australia do not care about locale specific pure reptiles, I have seen first hand the continual growth in regards to demand for these sorts of reptiles, because that’s exactly what we specialize in.

As a result of this wide spread practice by a minority, I find it somewhat disappointing to see so quickly, the confusion and doubt shown over the identity of many reptiles that people have either have purchased or offered up for sale. I feel though, that the horse has already bolted.

 

[Retic]

I agree there Dave, an escaped snake can easily badly pollute important wild populations which actually DOES impact on our native wildlife.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

There was a sad site after the cyclone that smashed Innisfail two seasons ago. Here was this huge ugly Brisbane carpet that stuck out like dogs nuts in the destroyed bush inside the Township its self. A scary scenario obviously crossed my mind.

 

[Retic]

Yes I can imagine and of course the opposite scenario is also a worry. Whenever snake is kept outside of it's natural habitat there is always the possibility of this sort of problem occuring.

 

[richardsc]

what would they call the crossed albino,lol,an albino dangle carpet python,pmsl,id prefer a black and gold over an albino anyways,i dont care what people say,i still think the normals look so much prettyer,eg darwins and olives,if i wanted something big and yellow,id buy a pool noodle,save my self 11 and a half grand to,lol,that buys alot of normals

 

[NickM]

I am hearing all of the same excuses I hear in the US from hybrid breeders.

For anyone who thinks it would be more "exiting" to have a herpmarket like the one we have, they should be carefull what they wish for.

The longterm damage to a captive gene pool that these animals represent is hard to comprehend,

When I was much younger and just starting to breed herps 12 years ago. I produced two clutches of DiaomondXCoastal intergrades.. At the time I thought it fine to do since they intergrade in the wild, at least that was how I justified it to myself at the time.

I produced around 40 intergrades and of them honestly for what they were, so if others are to be believed they should not have caused any problem right?

I later sold the adults and I actually watched as the new owner bred the male toa female coastal and then simply sold them as coastals, wehn he knew exactly what they were.

I sold a few to the local pet shops as well, also telling them exactly what they were. I think the shops perhaps did not want to bother explaining to people what they were so they also simply sold them as coastal carpets.

It was after seeing all of these animals that I hade "honestly represented" being mis-represented by the very poeple I sold them to, that I decided to never again work with intergrades.

And one last point to illustrate the loingterm effects of this short sighted breeding. There is currently an intergrade that I propduced in 1995 that is for sale at a local shop and to no surprise at all it is being sold as a coastal!!!

So even ater 12 years these animals are still changing hands and still being mis-represented. Still causing problems to anyone who wants pure stock.


Nick

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Yes indicus you seem to know what my intentions are as much as you know me. How can i be in it to make money if my snakes are worthless????? Please show me one sound species that was bred in private hands by private keepers, not governmental funding that has ever been released into the wild. And even better would be an example of a snake???? And this excludes any form of zoo. I am talking private, like you and me???????? Not for one moment have i questioned you about your beliefs and practices, You dont know how many pure locality animals are bred by me nor what my opinion is of that. I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species.

 

[Ramsayi]

Come on MH,how can you say " I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species." ? unless it is a tongue in cheek comment to begin with.What if genetic data proves they are all definate subspecies.It might convince to to stop hybridising but the horse by then would of well and truly bolted.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Of course I have an issue with people crossing carpet pythons with Morelia bredli and Morelia spillota! These have been proven to be genetically different to each other. And yes i have stated before that i would like to see what these combinations could yield but every person is entitled to change their mind.

 

[Australis]

I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definately seperate the sub species.

Of course I have an issue with people crossing carpet pythons with Morelia bredli and Morelia spillota! These have been proven to be genetically different to each other. And yes i have stated before that i would like to see what these combinations could yield but every person is entitled to change their mind.

Was there some legality issues in Victoria that helped change your mind on the Bredli and Diamond Hets?

Because you sure didnt seem to have a problem with the rest.................

"Darwin to Jungle"

"Darwin to Carpet Intergrade" (Which is what anyways? a Diamond x Jungle?)

"Darwin to Prosepine variety Carpet"


When your above combinations are expressed in a Albino form, they might very well be hard
to seperate from a pure Darwin form, causing confussion down the line.

Im glad, i atleast know some people who will only ever produce true Albino Darwins.,

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

And i'll be one of those breeding pure darwins. But lets see what happens. Only time will tell.