Aussie Native Jags

[Sean51]

The name was coined by Jan Eric Engell to describe his line of co-dom RP carpets. Unless they originate directly from that line they shouldn't be called Jags. It is a unique name and not a purely descriptive name like striped, reduced pattern or albino which I agree anyone should be able to use.

RPMs are Jags, the name was coined presumably to legitimize animals from smuggled stock. The sooner the confusing RPM tag is dropped the better.

Thanks for clearing that up for me mate.

 

[hugsta]

And your genetic proof at that statement? I specifically asked about the genetics of my girl before I purchased her and viewed her parents etc....feel free to prove otherwise though.

So basically if you have anything with a reduced pattern it is a jag? Is that what you are saying? hhhhmmm I guess I better euth a couple of my albino darwins that have next to no pattern in them then.....damn what a waste of money that was.

And if it is a cross between two definite aussie natives that have been line bred for years to produce it?? What is it then?

If you are going to insult breeders and peoples reptiles atleast do your homework first....no self-respecting breeder I've met would introduce a jag to their pure bloodlines that they breed and sell, especially when they can get stunning animals without it.

Although again am guessing this will go in one ear and out another for most that prefer the ignorance of not learning the genetics.

Obviously you read, but do not comprehend that which was written. No one has said that animals with a reduced pattern is a JAG. What they have said is that an RPM (reduced pattern morph or whatever the original term was), the name that was given to them by Doc Rock at Southern Cross Reptiles, are JAGs. This was just a way to try and introduce an animal that has originally been smuggled into the country without being blatently out there about the true origins of the animals when he went public with them.

So, animals that have a reduced pattern do not necasarily mean they are RPMs or JAGs. And, most self-respecting keepers have introduced JAGs into their collections and bred from them. Even those that were purists 5 or 6 years ago are breeding with them as well. I suppose who can blame them, as they are stunning animals.

Also, if you learn the genetics behind the animals you are talking about, you will find that RPMs have exactly the same genetic traits ie. mode of inheritance, as JAGs, including the nuero issues. So before you go and rant on, at least learn what you are talking about before lecturing those that do. Albino darwins are not RPMs and have never been coined so, they have also never been termed as 'reduced pattern' animals either. they would either be high white, or high yellow etc etc.

If you bred a proserpine that had a reduced pattern with another proserpine with a reduced pattern, you get a.........yes, proserpine with a reduced pattern. no rocket science there. or if it is a cross between two seperate species that have a reduced pattern, then you have a hybrid/cross of something. You do not end up with an RPM or JAG.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

And your genetic proof at that statement? I specifically asked about the genetics of my girl before I purchased her and viewed her parents etc....feel free to prove otherwise though.

So basically if you have anything with a reduced pattern it is a jag? Is that what you are saying? hhhhmmm I guess I better euth a couple of my albino darwins that have next to no pattern in them then.....damn what a waste of money that was.

And if it is a cross between two definite aussie natives that have been line bred for years to produce it?? What is it then?

If you are going to insult breeders and peoples reptiles atleast do your homework first....no self-respecting breeder I've met would introduce a jag to their pure bloodlines that they breed and sell, especially when they can get stunning animals without it.

Although again am guessing this will go in one ear and out another for most that prefer the ignorance of not learning the genetics.

In the interest of not taking up too much time or space on this post, I will simply say "facepalm". You have clearly been hornswaggled and I do so hate to be the bearer of bad news but... you are just wrong. What Hugsta says in the quote below is 100% accurate. Unfortunately, this was one of the potential consequences the "purists" foresaw when the whole "RPM" thing got let out of the bag. I simply can't believe people would try to pass these animals off as "pure" homegrown Aussie morphs. I mean, with a wink and a nod, a lot of us added "RPM's" to our collections, but no one I know of had any illusions as to what they were getting into (bar one, you know who you are ). IE neuro, purist backlash, etc.

In your post here, you make referance to others' ignorance of genetics. I think perhaps you need to read up a bit on the topic yourself. When you add colour and pattern + mode of inheritance + obvious neuro issues = you can spout off all you like but... they're Jags. Period. From the looks of the image you posted earlier on, ermm... that looks like a Jag to me. If you want to be certain, breed it. If, when bred to a "wild type" animal, half the babies look like your photo, it's a Jag. If you acquire a similar animal from the same source, breed the two together, and half the bubs are white and dead, it's a Jag.

Obviously you read, but do not comprehend that which was written. No one has said that animals with a reduced pattern is a JAG. What they have said is that an RPM (reduced pattern morph or whatever the original term was), the name that was given to them by Doc Rock at Southern Cross Reptiles, are JAGs. This was just a way to try and introduce an animal that has originally been smuggled into the country without being blatently out there about the true origins of the animals when he went public with them.

So, animals that have a reduced pattern do not necasarily mean they are RPMs or JAGs. And, most self-respecting keepers have introduced JAGs into their collections and bred from them. Even those that were purists 5 or 6 years ago are breeding with them as well. I suppose who can blame them, as they are stunning animals.

Also, if you learn the genetics behind the animals you are talking about, you will find that RPMs have exactly the same genetic traits ie. mode of inheritance, as JAGs, including the nuero issues. So before you go and rant on, at least learn what you are talking about before lecturing those that do. Albino darwins are not RPMs and have never been coined so, they have also never been termed as 'reduced pattern' animals either. they would either be high white, or high yellow etc etc.

If you bred a proserpine that had a reduced pattern with another proserpine with a reduced pattern, you get a.........yes, proserpine with a reduced pattern. no rocket science there. or if it is a cross between two seperate species that have a reduced pattern, then you have a hybrid/cross of something. You do not end up with an RPM or JAG.

Yeh, what Hugsta said. Well put mate but, *moan* somehow, many still can't or refuse to "get it". Great now I'm sleepy.

Sorry OP, meant to add, there is no such thing as a "pure Aussie Jag." As many have illustrated, there are plenty of spectacular "reduced pattern" type pure native animals around, but these are not "Jags". The similarities are only superficial, and do not at all share the same mode of inheritance.

 

[D3pro]

Genetic proof that "RPMs" are Jags:

These were hatched in Australia from some of the first "RPMs". Only jags produce lucies.
End of story.

Calling reduced patterned carpets "RPMs" is confusing. Maybe not the best choice of words? lol

Some great animals here in this thread!

 

[saximus]

I recognise that pic D3

 

[D3pro]

I recognise that pic D3

LOL, it's real this time I swear!

 

[saximus]

Haha yeah if I hadn't seen it when he posted it on Facebook I would have been suspicious of you

 

[Jungle_Freak]

View attachment 225487

An updated pic of my pretty little RPM that I took yesterday....definitely no jag gene's in her though!! :lol:

Who bred this little stunner ?

 

[Kyro]

According to a previous thread it was bred by SXR.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Ok thanks .

 

[longqi]

So Aussie breeders who dont use anything with Jag in it to produce a stunning line really need to get right away from using Reduced Pattern in their descriptions??
Because RPM now now means Jag to most people

 

[Southside Morelia]

So Aussie breeders who dont use anything with Jag in it to produce a stunning line really need to get right away from using Reduced Pattern in their descriptions??
Because RPM now now means Jag to most people

Umm, the only conundrum is, we had in Australia reduced pattern animals way before jags came along and called them that name accordingly....Reduced Pattern..... I agree with you Longqi, but what is the answer to this my friend, what do we call them, as this is a no-brainer?
I will always say "pure" to those lines that are proven 100% pure reduced pattern lines and have actually started a thread on this discussion years ago...which unfortunately due to the sensitivity from some Mods, was deleted. I asked breeders what they wil call their pure animals now jags are in the mix. Sorry you cant search it as it was a touchy subject and thought provoking thread at the time, hence its deletion, because Jags were only surfacing and many breeders incorrectly thought, it was an attack on their pure lines of animals.
For me, it was forethought and now is happening, I wish I could recall how long ago that was for interests sake and how things change and swing in the hobby, as we all know.

 

[junglepython2]

And your genetic proof at that statement? I specifically asked about the genetics of my girl before I purchased her and viewed her parents etc....feel free to prove otherwise though.

So basically if you have anything with a reduced pattern it is a jag? Is that what you are saying? hhhhmmm I guess I better euth a couple of my albino darwins that have next to no pattern in them then.....damn what a waste of money that was.

And if it is a cross between two definite aussie natives that have been line bred for years to produce it?? What is it then?

If you are going to insult breeders and peoples reptiles atleast do your homework first....no self-respecting breeder I've met would introduce a jag to their pure bloodlines that they breed and sell, especially when they can get stunning animals without it.

Although again am guessing this will go in one ear and out another for most that prefer the ignorance of not learning the genetics.

Wow lol. Let me explain again, slowly.

As Hugsta's post alluded to Jag's originated overseas, they are co-dom, with the Het being the Jag and the homozygous form being lethal (Lucy's). Along the lines these have been smuggled into the country and were re-badged by a prominent breeder as RPM's (reduced pattern modified). The two are one and the same, and just about all the local Jag/RPM breeders are happy to admit that. (see D3Pro's photo)

You seem to be confusing local reduced pattern (RP) animals with RPM's. The term RPM was coined I imagine to legitimise the Jag's as they are from smuggled stock. All it seems to do now is confuse novices rather then the authorities.

Of course you can have reduced pattern, legitimate australian native morelia's but they are just that and not RPM's or Jags and they wont produce leucistics.

 

[hugsta]

So Aussie breeders who dont use anything with Jag in it to produce a stunning line really need to get right away from using Reduced Pattern in their descriptions??
Because RPM now now means Jag to most people

There is only one person to blame for the demoralisation, I guess, and confusion of the term 'reduced pattern' and Doc Rock should never had called them that. Perhaps 'aussie jag' may have suited them better seeing as they are jags in Aust. And left the term'reduced pattern' to the pure forms that are around these days. I am sure there are breeders that have put years of work behind their local reduced patterned animals only to have it all destroyed when JAGs were smuggled into the country. But I guess that is a discussion for another day.

 

[mungus]

Thats 100% right Hugsta.
Feel sorry for those breeders who invested so much time etc into their RPM......
There was only 1 reason they were smuggled into the country imo........$$
Sad really...............

 

[junglepython2]

There is only one person to blame for the demoralisation, I guess, and confusion of the term 'reduced pattern' and Doc Rock should never had called them that. Perhaps 'aussie jag' may have suited them better seeing as they are jags in Aust. And left the term'reduced pattern' to the pure forms that are around these days. I am sure there are breeders that have put years of work behind their local reduced patterned animals only to have it all destroyed when JAGs were smuggled into the country. But I guess that is a discussion for another day.

Very well said! Now that that cat is out of the bag, hopefully the RPM tag can be dropped and they can just be called Jags and RP can be left for the natives without all the stigma.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Come on guys this has been done to death, before certain parties jump on here pushing their agendas and/or pretending not to know the facts and therefore twisting the facts the bottom line is.

RPM (reduced pattern morph) is a JAG, they are co-dominant and produce Leucistics as proven by Larks.........They are native carpets and "some" NOT ALL will have neuro conditions.........

Any carpets that look jagish should be called RP (reduced pattern) not RPM OR JAG.

 

[Southside Morelia]

I'm not a multiple post guy, BUT the last 4 posts are all valid in my limited books and opinions. One person coined the phrase and all newbies catch on out of respect to SXR and his contribution to the hobby...albeit good, but now he has made a hasty retreat.....why I wonder? I agree, not a great description and has done us all an injustice!
Jags are stunning, PURE RP Morelia the same, as Ben has said.....this topic has been done to death!
Enjoy the diversity in the hobby guys, I love it, BUT I still have problems with proving authenticity of 100% proven & pure blood lines in the future, this is a concern! We all have to accept and ENJOY both in the hobby, but also not like other OS Countries, WE need as Aussies, to know how to keep the lines distant and distinguish between the two for our own unique hobby.... Now that's a hard task hey??
I have a theory/proposal, but that's another thread, in which i hope is not deleted when i start it soon!

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Come on guys this has been done to death, before certain parties jump on here pushing their agendas and/or pretending not to know the facts and therefore twisting the facts the bottom line is.

RPM (reduced pattern morph I understand it as RP Modified. From the horse's mouth. Minor detail.) is a JAG, they are co-dominant and produce Leucistics as proven by Larks.........They are native carpets and "some" NOT ALL will have neuro conditions.........

Any carpets that look jagish should be called RP (reduced pattern) not RPM OR JAG.

As you know Ben, I am on your side here, but I think where the confusion is coming into play is in using terms like "native" which becomes "Aussie native" which becomes "PURE Aussie native" and so forth. You know I have no problem with these animals, I find them quite fetching, however, I think the time for obfuscation is long since past. Since they are Jags, let's just call 'em what they are. Their popularity is based on their own merit, not some label that is past it's use-by-date. By calling them what they are, breeders of animals such as JamesJr's, can go back to calling them "Reduced Pattern Coastals" without him having to spend half his days trying to explain this whole tired argument over and over again.

As far as the neuro goes, you're playing with words. Is it more accurate to say "some" than "all"? Sure, but only in the context of "will my animal display neuro symptoms?". A better choice of words is "most" will display neuro problems to one degree or another. Again, "most" present neuro as "some un-coordination" with a smaller percentage having the dreaded cork-screws. It is well established now that the neuro problem is inexorably linked to the "Jag" gene, and trying to downplay it just makes all of us who keep and breed this line look like dicks. I mean, I don't know if Morgan dragon's animal is one of yours Ben, doesn't matter as it's SXR line, but if so, see how people get confused? When someone goes on to make statements like:

An updated pic of my pretty little RPM that I took yesterday....definitely no jag gene's in her though!!

Surely it's obvious how it tars all Jag keepers and breeders with the brush of dishonesty, because this buyer genuinely believes that she is in possession of an animal that is "pure Aussie" and completely free of any potential corkscrewing genetics? Come first breeding season with this animal, she will likely be in for a rude shock.

Full circle back to the OP's question, tacking tags onto Jags, like "RPM", "Aussie" or "native" just way over complicates a simple thing. Take 'em or leave 'em, love 'em or hate 'em, they're here to stay so no point in calling them anything other than what they are.

*Whew!*

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

All good Asron, you hit the nail on the head. I only threw the native tag in there as I was addressing the original post and calling them what they are........