Frillies dead at full term, any ideas???

[GreggMadden]

So what we have found out thus far is that SIM containers in top heated bird incubators are not working well... The reason is the heating element needs to get much hotter than usual in order to un-naturally force the warm air down... Basically the heating element will have to be between 108 degrees f and 110 degrees f in order to heat the ambient air temp to 85 degrees f...

This uneven heating is causing the air in the chamber above the grid to be much hotter than the damp substrate... This keeps the humidity in the substrate and it does not release in the the chamber above...

We are working on a way to combat the situation because we want people to be able to use this product no matter what incubator they use... Even if they are using incubators designed to hatch bird eggs...

The fix is actually quite simple... You can fasten a thin damp sponge to the underside of the lid and this will inturn create the needed humidity in the egg chamber from the top...

Everyone needs to keep in mind here that the SIM is much different than traditional incubation methods...

 

[shane14]

Was this using the SIM tubs?

Sim tubs the ones that the Crickets come in? i used tubs of them and just washed them. Was my first season ever, so im chuffed that i got SOME success

 

[GeckoJosh]

I thought you would have tried the tubs with an incubator as common as Hovabator
Its a bit of a shame for Andy to have to pay with his clutch to learn this technique

 

[GeckoJosh]

Sim tubs the ones that the Crickets come in? i used tubs of them and just washed them. Was my first season ever, so im chuffed that i got SOME success

No SIM tubs are a product used to incubate eggs over water

 

[Slats]

I feel for you Andy,
Best of luck next year.

 

[andyscott]

The fix is actually quite simple... You can fasten a thin damp sponge to the underside of the lid and this will inturn create the needed humidity in the egg chamber from the top...

Everyone needs to keep in mind here that the SIM is much different than traditional incubation methods...

About time someone has the courage to admit that the tubs ''sometimes'' need to be tweaked in order to preform at there best.
Nicole could not possibly admit that. THANK YOU GREGG.

Yes Nicole all your photos are fantastic, The SIM tubs work well when you know the lids need to be tweaked a little.
If I was informed that there was a small issue up front.
I would have happily warmed the lids to make a better fit.

I understand you are standing by your product, but guess what, its not perfect.
As stated before, I have fixed the problem and will use them again.
Now that Ive learnt from my losses.

From now on any sales you should make in the future should come with something that states.
IN ORDER FOR THIS PRODUCT TO WORK AT ITS BEST, WARM THE LID (hot water or microwave) TO ENSURE A TIGHT FIT!!!

Most importantly, there would be a huge chance of 16 extra little Frillies running around this world, if I was told.

Have a nice day, I must go, I have 16 little holes to dig.
CHEERS ANDY...

 

[andyscott]

One more thing, the tubs are made to be used with a water substrate.

Another small modification is the way the tubs are designed,
vermiculite is a lot better. It creates a lot more humidity.

 

[itbites]

I thought you would have tried the tubs with an incubator as common as Hovabator
Its a bit of a shame for Andy to have to pay with his clutch to learn this technique

That is exactly right & well put!

In my opinion if you are going to mass produce & sell a product that has not been tested in every single way,
it is bad practice to go ahead & sell them without ironing out ALL the kinks!

Why should a paying customer have to find out the hard way that the product doesn't in fact cater
to ALL methods of incubation??

If a company manufacturing infant products were to do something similar to this, the ramifications would be dire!

Funny that I have incubated clutches myself using nothing more than an ice cream container
& old snake enclosure & had 100% hatch rate.

 

[GreggMadden]

About time someone has the courage to admit that the tubs ''sometimes'' need to be tweaked in order to preform at there best.
Nicole could not possibly admit that. THANK YOU GREGG.

Hi Andy,
To be fair, Nicole was not aware of the issue with top heated incubators... We did not find this out until a couple of weeks ago ourselves... To be honest, not many people use hovabators or other top heated incubators to incubate reptile eggs anymore... There are many other, better options out there now... The modification I mentioned only needs to be done with top heated, thermo air flow incubators like Hovas... The reason why we are not keeping this quiet is because if it was swept under the rug, we could not come to a solution or a fix... Nicole, John, and myself want everyone to succeed with this product no matter what incubator you are using...

As far as the lid not fitting correctly, that was a factory error and not all the lids were affected... Only the ones affected needed to be heated to fit properly... Me and John spent many nights heating lids before we shipped them to our customers once we discoverd the issue...

I understand you are standing by your product, but guess what, its not perfect.
As stated before, I have fixed the problem and will use them again.
Now that Ive learnt from my losses.

The product does work perfectly when used correctly... Certainly every product has its quirks... Unfortunately, we were unaware of the issues until we got reports from a few customers...

From now on any sales you should make in the future should come with something that states.
IN ORDER FOR THIS PRODUCT TO WORK AT ITS BEST, WARM THE LID (hot water or microwave) TO ENSURE A TIGHT FIT!!!

Since we found the problem we have told all of our customers what to do if the lid did not fit properly... Like I said we did not know about the issue intil recently... We also put a disclaimer on our site to inform people that there is currently an issue when using the SIM in a hovabator and that we are working to resolve the issue...

Most importantly, there would be a huge chance of 16 extra little Frillies running around this world, if I was told.

Have a nice day, I must go, I have 16 little holes to dig.
CHEERS ANDY...

Andy, I feel bad about you loosing some hatchlings... It is not a fun thing to go through... Sorry for your loss Andy... I hope next season will be better and the product will not fail you or your hatchlings...

Feel free to contact me any time...

 

[itbites]

Hi Andy,
To be fair, Nicole was not aware of the issue with top heated incubators... We did not find this out until a couple of weeks ago ourselves... To be honest, not many people use hovabators or other top heated incubators to incubate reptile eggs anymore... There are many other, better options out there now... The modification I mentioned only needs to be done with top heated, thermo air flow incubators like Hovas... The reason why we are not keeping this quiet is because if it was swept under the rug, we could not come to a solution or a fix... Nicole, John, and myself want everyone to succeed with this product no matter what incubator you are using...

As far as the lid not fitting correctly, that was a factory error and not all the lids were affected... Only the ones affected needed to be heated to fit properly...


The product does work perfectly when used correctly... Certainly every product has its quirks... Unfortunately, we were unaware of the issues until we got reprts from a few customers...


Since we found the problem we have told all of our customers what to do if the lid did not fit properly... Like I said we did not know about the issue intil recently...


Andy, I feel bad about you loosing some hatchlings... It is not a fun thing to go through... Sorry for your loss Andy... I hope next season will be better and the product will not fail you or your hatchlings...

Feel free to contact me any time...

So you yourself are aware that there are issues with some of the tubs you sold being faulty...
Did those customers who lost clutches get reimbursed for their losses?

It does not matter what incubator is being used as the product did not state that it's not as effective with top heated incubators...

Mean while an otherwise perfectly healthy clutch has bit the dust for no good reason. :|

 

[GreggMadden]

So you yourself are aware that there are issues with some of the tubs you sold being faulty...
Did those customers who lost clutches get reimbursed for their losses?

Like I said, we just found this out recently and we contacted all customers we could and told them... However, we also state that if the conditions are not proper in the container, DO NOT put eggs in... You need to see condensation an inch past the grid line before you add eggs... If you do not see that, the conditions are not proper... Guess what... If the lid is not fitting correctly or if you are using a top heated incubator, the condensation will not build up...

So what kind of reimbursment are you talking about???
How do we cover the loss and who can even tell if the container was the issue??? There are MANY things that can cause an embryo to die during incubation... So no, customers who lost eggs did not get reimbursed for lost eggs... Like I said, above it is known that if the condition are not right, eggs should not be placed in the container until the conditions are right...

It would be irrational to even consider something like that... We are offering and incubation tool... Like any tool, if not used properly, it will not function correctly...

 

[andyscott]

Andy, I feel bad about you loosing some hatchlings... It is not a fun thing to go through... Sorry for your loss Andy... I hope next season will be better and the product will not fail you or your hatchlings...

Feel free to contact me any time...

Hi Gregg,

I was not using a Hovabator.
I was using fan forced incubators, specifically designed for reptile use.
I had the clutch in 2 separate tubs, both tubs failed me.

Also, the whole clutch was spoken for, most of which are people that have been looking for a Frilled Neck Lizard for quite some time.
I even had a Reptile Park in Townsville extremely desperate for Frillies, that they were going to straight swap me 2 Frilled Necks for 2 hatchling Crocs.


In closing my girlfriend Kristy aka itbites would like to speak to you,
so she will be contacting you soon.

Cheers again Andy.

So im by far no the only one disappointed by this outcome.

 

[Jarden]

Sorry to hear bout your loss andy. Thouse frillies are quite sort after ! Would love to get one off you in the seasons to come

 

[Ramsayi]

Bummer about the clutch,these things sometimes happen and as long as you learn from it then it wasn't a total waste.

I think blaming a tub is a bit over the top,after all they are only plastic containers, albeit expensive ones,unless of course you were led to believe that they had super incubating powers.Tubs do not even need to be airtight to do a good job getting eggs all the way through incubation,even cheap $2 ones will produce decent results.

To me it's the method used ie:no substrate or not allowing eggs to be in contact with the substrate.Using vermiculite or perlite in contact with the eggs allows the eggs to draw water into them if needed.Also using a medium creates more humidity because of a larger surface area.Provided the medium isn't over wet then any type of reptile egg can be hatched successfully.

 

[itbites]

Like I said, we just found this out recently and we contacted all customers we could and told them... However, we also state that if the conditions are not proper in the container, DO NOT put eggs in... You need to see condensation an inch past the grid line before you add eggs... If you do not see that, the conditions are not proper... Guess what... If the lid is not fitting correctly or if you are using a top heated incubator, the condensation will not build up...

So what kind of reimbursment are you talking about???
How do we cover the loss and who can even tell if the container was the issue??? There are MANY things that can cause an embryo to die during incubation... So no, customers who lost eggs did not get reimbursed for lost eggs... Like I said, above it is known that if the condition are not right, eggs should not be placed in the container until the conditions are right...

It would be irrational to even consider something like that... We are offering and incubation tool... Like any tool, if not used properly, it will not function correctly...

So in one sentence you say there were some faulty SIM tubs that were sold.. then in the next you blame the buyer for incorrect use...So which is it?

Also before this thread tonight I would like to see where you have previously stated the issues with the tubs etc...You said you weren't sweeping anything under the rug well if this thread was not created would you have come forward anyways??

We were not notified of any problems like you said you did with other buyers & yet Nicole knew we were having issues very early on

The frill neck embryo's were developing quite well & were fully formed as the pictures indicate...

What will be interesting is if after realizing the tubs are in fact faulty & rectifying "tweaking them"
Whether this second clutch will hatch successfully...I dare say IF they do that just concretes the fact that the tubs are at fault & perhaps a recall of sorts is in order until you can rectify the issues.

I'm not about to continue this conversation on the forum, I will take it up with you personally tomorrow..

 

[Johnantny]

Andy,

Your frills went full term and failed to pip. This is unusual, and a first time I have heard this happening with the SIM. This is hard to prove that the SIM is at fault. Many underlying factors could have taken place so speculating will not help the situation. A lack of egg tooth is not uncommon, and often traps full term babies in egg. Yes, its uncommon but documented. The lid issue may not be the reason either. Your babies went full term or close to it. Lid problems that caused eggs to collapse very early on, within first week or so of laying, not as close to hatch as your photos show.

I have ordered new lids for Nicole. I am paying for the replacement lids, shipping to Australia and shipping to Nicole's customers.

Not to repeat this but incubators truly matter when doing "zero substrate" or SIM incubation. Bottom heated and or air circulated incubators create the humidity build so condensation occurs on the side walls. Failure to achieve this can lead to egg collapse and egg death.

I hope this event hasn't deterred you from using the SIM again, and I wish you success in hatching those Frillies. I'll let Nicole know when the lids will arrive.

Best regards

John

 

[Splitmore]

Also, the whole clutch was spoken for, most of which are people that have been looking for a Frilled Neck Lizard for quite some time.
I even had a Reptile Park in Townsville extremely desperate for Frillies, that they were going to straight swap me 2 Frilled Necks for 2 hatchling Crocs.


.

One thing you can never do is count your 'chickens' before they hatch!! No offence but that shows your inexperience right there. I too have had many frilly eggs go full term to only have one or two hatch. They are not the easiest lizard to breed or incubate, many people keep them yet you see very few advertised for sale.
I'm of the firm belief good eggs will hatch in just about anything, imagine what they go through in nature. They hardly get 100% perfect conditions.
I understand your disappointment but to put the blame soley on the incubation container is a bit harsh. Maybe next season split the clutches and do half the traditional way and half in these tubs and see, or try it with something else.
In saying that I'm quite happy with my $2 tubs with a handful of damp vermiculite thrown in the bottom but a mate of mine hatched 2 clutches of greens this year using these fancy tubs with fantastic results.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

The fact is that unfortunately somebody always has to be blamed when things happen, if a hatchlings dies before it's born then it must be he container, it can not be the incubator. If a hatchling dies in the care of it's new owner then it's somehing the breeder did wrong. An so the blame game goes on. It suddenly makes sense that itbites is upset! You and Andy were expecting your babies that you have already sold before they were born? I have no reason to lie. Out of 200 tubs that were sold in that batch of yours Andy, you and one more person had an issue. One had an issue with the lid and the other was yourself. You also posted a thread where I asked you to measure them humidity and post pics o the setup? You never did. You did not even use a hygrometer? So the fact that you think the tubs you have don't make humidity is based on assumption?

The American market is huge in comparison to the Australian market. They only found out a few weeks ago and they have moved thousands o these tubs in the states. The sample size was bigger for them so the issues surfaced sooner. I have not sold nearly as many! Most of my customers have been happy and I have even had repeat orders.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I get upset when things like this because it could have been avoided. All you had to do when you suspected there was an issue with humidity was to send me an email to ask for advice. It is standard practise for for suppliers to try and sort out issues. If you buy something faulty from Harvey Norman; do you take it back to the supplier or post a thread on a forum? Hygrometers are inexpensive and for a clutch that has $250 or $300 marked per head, I would have gladly paid for an instrument that would have given me the peace of mind about the humidity.

 

[JasonL]

This happens all the time with Friled Dragon eggs, and personally I don't think it has anything to do with incubation, but more so how healthy (ie the calcium level) level of the female who laid them and what temps she was kept at during and before she was gravid. Just because she looks healthy and eats OK doese not necessarily mean her calcium levels are great, and she will pass them onto the eggs, the same thing happens with Oedura geckos, esp when over or under heated.