Has the Code of Practice made racks obsolete in NSW?

[yellowbeard]

I have just been checking the size of vision racks (Snake Racks Australia), to me it looks like their racks are all to small when you consider the climbing restriction of most carpet pythons.

Anyone know if they will be increasing the size of their rack/tubs so that us in NSW will be able to use them?

 

[Max101]

I don't think they will increase the tub sizes as snake racks Australia imports them from the main company overseas.

 

[Jacknife]

NSW just gonna have to suck it up and miss out...

 

[deebo]

what???? how???

If one did happen to catch on fire it would be nothing to do with the fact that its a vision rack. The fire would start from the heat cord so even if you build your own and use heat cord (or any heating) it could catch on fire as well. Ive had a couple vision racks in use for a while now, one for about 4yrs another for about 18 months and couldnt be happier with them and want more.

 

[Trimeresurus]

what???? how???

If one did happen to catch on fire it would be nothing to do with the fact that its a vision rack. The fire would start from the heat cord so even if you build your own and use heat cord (or any heating) it could catch on fire as well. Ive had a couple vision racks in use for a while now, one for about 4yrs another for about 18 months and couldnt be happier with them and want more.

You didn't know vision racks combust in contact with oxygen?

 

[yellowbeard]

Thanks a for all the constructive comments.

Am I the only one that finds it odd that these racks have been housing large pythons for some of the most distinguished herpetologists, breeders and zoos in the United States maybe even the world, but they are not big enough for climbing carpet pythons within NSW?

 

[andynic07]

There is a difference in a liveable space and enrichment. The whole free range animal farming movement goes on this principle. Look up sow stalls in the UK , I know this is extreme and I am in no way comparing these breeders or racks to this but it is the extreme case of a liveable space that has no enrichment.

 

[Bart70]

Thanks a for all the constructive comments.

Am I the only one that finds it odd that these racks have been housing large pythons for some of the most distinguished herpetologists, breeders and zoos in the United States maybe even the world, but they are not big enough for climbing carpet pythons within NSW?

Zoos, medical facilities and research agencies do not fall under the same regs in NSW as you and I - They can continue to use these systems in NSW so sales to this segment of the overall market will still exist.

I am not familiar with Vision or their market, but depending on where their major market is (ie - larger organisations that are not bound by the regs or keepers like the majority of us who are bound by the regs) it may not be worth their while to develop lines that may only appeal to a small segment of their market in NSW.

If the lost sales to NSW are not worth the investment they may not bother....

 

[longqi]

Thanks a for all the constructive comments.

Am I the only one that finds it odd that these racks have been housing large pythons for some of the most distinguished herpetologists, breeders and zoos in the United States maybe even the world, but they are not big enough for climbing carpet pythons within NSW?

big breeders are there for one reason
that reason is to make money as a snake farmer
making money as any farmer means fitting the maximum possible number of animals into the smallest possible area of land for the shortest possible period of time
easy example
you have 5000acres of valley land with permanent springs running 50 head of cattle
your neighbour has the same land and same water but runs 500 head of cattle
both farms will work
but one will make a lot more money

racking systems work brilliantly in snake farming cases
so does the battery hen system for chooks

but does anyone who supposedly loves chooks keep them in a battery system?

imo comparing and using commercial type operations in amateur situations is not conducive to the long term welfare of most animals

[duck my head and prepare for flak now??]

 

[andynic07]

What are the dimensions of the said tubs in these rack setups?

 

[wokka]

I have just been checking the size of vision racks (Snake Racks Australia), to me it looks like their racks are all to small when you consider the climbing restriction of most carpet pythons.

Anyone know if they will be increasing the size of their rack/tubs so that us in NSW will be able to use them?

What climbing restrictions? If you look at the standards for cages in the code of practice there is no reason why tubs should not qualify any more than cages. If tubs are say 400mm x 800mm what is the largest snake that can be legally housed in them?

 

[saximus]

What climbing restrictions? If you look at the standards for cages in the code of practice there is no reason why tubs should not qualify any more than cages. If tubs are say 400mm x 800mm what is the largest snake that can be legally housed in them?

Th climbing specifications are rather (deliberately?) vague in their description:

6.2.1.2 - An enclosure housing a species that normally climbs (see Appendix A) must provide climbing opportunities which are appropriate for the species being housed (i.e. one that facilitates the natural climbing behaviour of the reptile). Climbing opportunities can include branches, bark, rocks, perches, shelves or other suitable surfaces.

Depending on your interpretation (or, more importantly, an inspector's), a tub may not be able satisfy this requirement.

 

[yellowbeard]

What are the dimensions of the said tubs in these rack setups?

I stand corrected their arboreal rack can hold GTPs, how ever this would seem to be the only "climbing" carpet python as seen below the (Cl) indicates a "climbing" species and (m2) indicates the allowed
surface area

Table A6: Python categories
A
(0.15 m2)
Children’s
Antaresia children

A
Spotted
Antaresia maculosa

A
Pygmy
Antaresia perthensis

A
Stimson’s
Antaresia stimsoni

B
(0.225 m2)
Green (Cl)
Morelia viridis

C
(0.4 m2)
Woma
Aspidites ramsayi

C
Rough-scaled (Cl)
Morelia carinata

C
Jungle Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota cheynei

D
(0.625 m2)
Black-headed
Aspidites melanocephalus

D
Water
Liasis mackloti

D
Centralian Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota bredli

D
South-western Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota imbricata

D
Coastal Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota mcdowelli

D
Inland carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota metcalfei

D
Diamond (Cl)
Morelia spilota spilota

D
North-western Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota variegata

E
(1.225 m2)
Olive
Liasis olivaceus

E
Scrub
Morelia kinghorni

 

[andynic07]

This is the Queensland code of practice extract that is from 2010 and this would suggest that in Queensland that none of the racks can legally house any python larger than 200cm and none of the racks can legally house Morelia Spilota species.

• The size of an enclosure varies according to the size of the python. Hatchlings and young pythons canbe housed in plastic lunchboxes with a safely ventilated lid (no harsh wire). A small python (<50cm totallength) requires a cage at least 20cm by 15cm by 10cm.
  
• Larger pythons need more space; however, these snakes are predominantly sedentary animals for mostof their lives and do not need the space that mammals or birds or more active snakes need. A python of200cm total length will require a cage with floor space at least 50cm by 100cm.
  
• The height of a cage will depend upon the species. Pythons that habitually climb (e.g. carpet pythons,Morelia spilota) will need the cage to be 90cm high or more, while essentially terrestrial species like theblack-headed python, Aspidites melanocephalus, will need a cage height of 50cm.
  

 

[yellowbeard]

big breeders are there for one reason
that reason is to make money as a snake farmer
making money as any farmer means fitting the maximum possible number of animals into the smallest possible area of land for the shortest possible period of time
easy example
you have 5000acres of valley land with permanent springs running 50 head of cattle
your neighbour has the same land and same water but runs 500 head of cattle
both farms will work
but one will make a lot more money

racking systems work brilliantly in snake farming cases
so does the battery hen system for chooks

but does anyone who supposedly loves chooks keep them in a battery system?

imo comparing and using commercial type operations in amateur situations is not conducive to the long term welfare of most animals

[duck my head and prepare for flak now??]

Duck and cover incoming!

I never mentioned "big breeders", but seeing that you have in your quote above it would seem to me that you are associating anyone with a racking system with a battery farmer, is there a bias there? I hope this is not the case but your view is your view.

I think these racking systems are ideal for people who love reptiles and don't have an excessive amount of space to keep them for example someone leaving in a unit, that person would be able to keep a group of different python species, over the years I have meet many people that do just this and the welfare of their animals could never be called "not conducive" and I remember one that had a display enclosure which she would cycle her pythons in ever couple of months.

 

[yellowbeard]

This is the Queensland code of practice extract that is from 2010 and this would suggest that in Queensland that none of the racks can legally house any python larger than 200cm and none of the racks can legally house Morelia Spilota species.

• The size of an enclosure varies according to the size of the python. Hatchlings and young pythons canbe housed in plastic lunchboxes with a safely ventilated lid (no harsh wire). A small python (<50cm totallength) requires a cage at least 20cm by 15cm by 10cm.
• Larger pythons need more space; however, these snakes are predominantly sedentary animals for mostof their lives and do not need the space that mammals or birds or more active snakes need. A python of200cm total length will require a cage with floor space at least 50cm by 100cm.
• The height of a cage will depend upon the species. Pythons that habitually climb (e.g. carpet pythons,Morelia spilota) will need the cage to be 90cm high or more, while essentially terrestrial species like theblack-headed python, Aspidites melanocephalus, will need a cage height of 50cm.

Sorry to read that you guys got screwed worse that us

 

[andynic07]

Sorry to read that you guys got screwed worse that us

I am not a breeder nor short of space for the snakes that I wish to keep so I am not affected by it. It also does not really cater for snakes between 500mm an 2000mm , I believe most would not keep a 1900mm carpet python in a tub measuring 200mm long x 150mm wide x 100mm high. I personally think the rack system is excellent for hatchlings and juvenile snakes.

 

[The_Geeza]

Duck and cover incoming!

I never mentioned "big breeders", but seeing that you have in your quote above it would seem to me that you are associating anyone with a racking system with a battery farmer, is there a bias there? I hope this is not the case but your view is your view.

I think these racking systems are ideal for people who love reptiles and don't have an excessive amount of space to keep them for example someone leaving in a unit, that person would be able to keep a group of different python species, over the years I have meet many people that do just this and the welfare of their animals could never be called "not conducive" and I remember one that had a display enclosure which she would cycle her pythons in ever couple of months.

Cycle pythons in one display enclosure.... Ridiculous !!!.... I'm a great fan of racks if used correctly.... I have a 6 x 50lt tub system that at present only has 2 x Darwin hatches and 1 x small fussy feeding stimsons.... The rack is basicly my holding pen up to yearlings giving me time and space for enclosure building projects

 

[Bart70]

I stand corrected their arboreal rack can hold GTPs, how ever this would seem to be the only "climbing" carpet python as seen below the (Cl) indicates a "climbing" species and (m2) indicates the allowed
surface area

Table A6: Python categories
A
(0.15 m2)
Children’s
Antaresia children

A
Spotted
Antaresia maculosa

A
Pygmy
Antaresia perthensis

A
Stimson’s
Antaresia stimsoni

B
(0.225 m2)
Green (Cl)
Morelia viridis

C
(0.4 m2)
Woma
Aspidites ramsayi

C
Rough-scaled (Cl)
Morelia carinata

C
Jungle Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota cheynei

D
(0.625 m2)
Black-headed
Aspidites melanocephalus

D
Water
Liasis mackloti

D
Centralian Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota bredli

D
South-western Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota imbricata

D
Coastal Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota mcdowelli

D
Inland carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota metcalfei

D
Diamond (Cl)
Morelia spilota spilota

D
North-western Carpet (Cl)
Morelia spilota variegata

E
(1.225 m2)
Olive
Liasis olivaceus

E
Scrub
Morelia kinghorni

Keep in mind that enclosure 'area' is not the only consideration. The smallest floor dimension dictates the maximum length of animal that can be housed as per Clasue 4.3.1.1

 

[benjamind2010]

An 80LT tub (18cm high) would suit any C python. However, if you are housing Chondros or Roughies you will want to put some dowels in there and affix them at equal space below and above which would give about 8cm space both above and below the dowel, which would be enough, but it's definitely minimal. I've seen such setups myself.