NSW Minimum Cage Sizes any update?

[Nathan_T]

There have been that many drafts floating about it is impossible for those of us not "in the know" to know if 3.3 is the current draft.Perhaps a couple of people who were/are on the originally committee representing keepers could comment.I know they are looking at this thread as they have already posted here.

3.3 is the chapter.section of the code, not the version number. That said, that quoted excerpt seems the only tangible evidence in the thread, so unless other evidence is presented I'm all for minimum enclosures of 1/4 animal size, that's less than commonly recommended anyway

 

[FAY]

Generally speaking, when a final proposal has been made it is already too late to make any contributions. Now is the time.

I agree with Jungletrans and Markars. Our hobby (if members on our forum are a true representation of the majority of keepers) has too much of an onus on how many animals you have without much scrutiny on housing conditions. N00bs are led to beleive that click clack and tub rack systems are appropriate conditions to keep adults of large species permanently. I think a law is required but you guys need to have a hand in on the negotiations.

The NT already has laws. Enclosures must be large enough for the snake to stretch out its full body length, access to a hide and water. These laws aren't enforced but they do exist. I wonder if laws in other states are going to be followed by the law makers?

A proposal is just that....a proposal....

 

[Pythoninfinite]

It's difficult to comment just now Mark.

Twin_Rivers, emails from keepers will have no effect as things stand at the moment, regardless of how many DECCW gets. They don't 'have' to listen to anything anyone says - and this is not just about enclosure sizes.

 

[reptile_mad]

These will not be guidelines/minimums they will be enforceable sizes.Basically the powers that be could come and do an inspection of your collection and run a tape measure over your cages.If they come up short even by 1cm they can then issue a compliance notice to have it fixed or even issue a fine.Who knows they could even perhaps take your animals off you as well.

Yes, I knew that they are planned to be enforced sizes, hence why I said "throw the hobby into reverse" which is probably what their ultimate goal is to, stop newcomers and push current keepers until they give up. I myself am all for the welfare of the animals and I strive to keep all my critters in adequate enclosures, but do not believe that we should be forced to abide by sizes that are excessively large and in some cases detrimental to inhabitants. I also would like to hear from people who are "In the know" as to what stage we are at, at this point in time.

 

[borntobnude]

Enclosures must be large enough for the snake to stretch out its full body length, access to a hide and water.

wenhave only been keeping snakes for a few years (2 stimmies and a bhp ) but very rarely do they ever seem to "stretch out" to any great length

 

[niggz]

I've just had a quick look at the draft, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any problem with it at all. (I only looked at pythons)

For Class A pythons which includes Stimsons, Spotteds, Childrens and Pygmy's
Adult enclosure:
Length 45 – 60 cm
Width 30 – 45 cm
Floor area 1,350 –
2,700 cm2

For Class B pythons including Woma, Water, RSP, Jungle, GTP
Adult enclosure:
Length 60 – 90 cm
Width 45 – 60 cm
Floor area 2,700 –
5,400 cm2

Class C which includes BHP, Darwin, Coastal, Diamond, Inland
Adult enclosure:
Length 90 – 150 cm
Width 60 – 90 cm
Floor area 5,400 –
13,500 cm2

So a 60cm x 30cm enclosure (floor area 1800cm2) which is commonly used to keep Stims, Spotteds, Childrens is more than adequate to meet the requirements.

A 90cm x 60 cm or 120cm x 60cm enclosure (floor area 5400 - 7200cm2) which is commonly used to house most carpets is more than adequate to meet the requirements.

A 120cm x 60cm or 150cm x 60cm enclosure (floor area 7200 - 9000cm2) which is commonly used to house BHP's is more than adequate to meet the requirements.

So what's the big deal !!!

 

[girdheinz]

Because the draft wasn't accepted and has now been changed due to primarily DPI (and others) not accepting it, that is the problem. The enclosure sizes have been made larger and made as mandatory minimums. The above were not even minimums, they were recommended enclosure sizes given by the advisory group appointed by DECCW. This group has been told it is no longer required for advice and that the code will now contain mandatory enforceable standards. I hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Ramsayi]

It's difficult to comment just now Mark.

Twin_Rivers, emails from keepers will have no effect as things stand at the moment, regardless of how many DECCW gets. They don't 'have' to listen to anything anyone says - and this is not just about enclosure sizes.

Understood Jamie however are you at liberty to comment on whether or not the sizes quoted so far are accurate or have they been altered once again?

 

[girdheinz]

Also food for thought. This is the first state and even place in the world that will have fully enforceable enclosure sizes. You have to ask is NSW DECCW being a world leader, or is there another agenda? You have to decide.

Gird

 

[girdheinz]

I strongly urge anyone who wants to know more information and keep in the loop with what is happening, to join their local herpetological society. Each of these groups have a representative that was on the advisory group. They regularly update their members on the current situation.

Gird

 

[niggz]

They regularly update their members on the current situation.

Gird



If that's the case why doesn't anybody know what is going on?

 

[girdheinz]

Everyone at AHS who was at the last meeting was told exactly what i gave you above.

 

[Bushfire]

IMO DPI and the others shouldn't have such a highly valued opinion / weighted advice on this matter. If DECCW valued their opinion so much at the start they would have been invited to sit on that committee, and debate and discuss like those groups that were present. Its plain and simply DECCW wanted mandatory enforceable sizes and they didnt accept the draft that the committee drew up. What the worrying part for every herper is that we as a group will no longer have a voice or say on what changes they will make, we are in the dark. We wont find out what changes they had made if any till it becomes law. We should of had a voice from start to the very end.

 

[niggz]

Cool thanks Gird, now we know! Maybe you should have written that in post #3 rather than post #47. It would have saved 4 pages of confusion!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Gird. The problem is that DECCW has chosen to exclude us from the final processes. We have sought to meet with them several times this year, we have asked for a copy of the CURRENT draft, but have been told that more input from us is not required. Despite being invited participants in the process, with, collectively, over 250 years of experience, we are excluded from the final (critical) part of the process.

Those of you who invite more bureaucratic involvement in reptile keeping in NSW, refer to my comments about the Trojan Horse. You may get more than you bargained for. All sorts of nasty things can be attractively packaged under the animal welfare label.

Absolutely correct Bushfire.

 

[Octane]

To all those that have jumped on the DECCW website and looked at the 'draft guidelines' think again. It is only a draft which can be throw aside or amended at any time.
A representative consultation group (from herpetological societies including highly respected researchers) was originally included/invited by the DECCW for assistance in formulating adequate guidelines for a code of practice (not law or mandatory).

This group has been told their assistance is no longer required as they are in consultation with other agencies/organisations. In addition DECCW is also refusing to reply to any requests as to the current status of the published draft or any proposed regulation or legislative change being considered. Could it be that DECCW had an agenda to start with and have included the keepers of the reptiles initially to be able to show all stakeholders were consulted in the process even though the recomendations seem to have been cast aside.

We may not find out what the DECCW is formulating until after they sneak it through parliament on the sly.

Regards
Octane

 

[girdheinz]

I'd also like to point out to the anti click clack brigade. Sure keeping and adult in an small click clack is unreasonable, but what about a click clack or tub (they come in very big sizes) of the appropriate size? I know if i were a python which one i'd like to be kept in. I certainly wouldn't choose the glass fronted enclosure where i am ogled upon all day and stressed out of my brain. Glass front enclosures are for the keepers pleasure only don't pretend otherwise.

I don't use click clacks for adults as like many others i like to view my animals but i certainly can't ridicule anyone keeping them in appropriate sized tubs from an animal welfare perspective.

How many of you have seen inadequate tub adult set-ups?

Gird

 

[spongebob]

So for those potentially in breach of the code is DECCW prepared to accept their herps?

I can just see it now a mass rally of irate herpers crying and in anguish as they hand in their beloved herps....

Or are we to ship them interstate?

Again a mass gathering at AAE ........

 

[cement]

I have just read this thread for the first time and, there is obviously a large amount of distrust in the DECCW over their attempts at regulating us.

I have been building houses for 25 years and seen exactly first hand how when given power, a govt body (local councils) will take it to the extreme.

We need the NRKA and we need it now.

Like with the councils I deal with, one day we will be saying "we gave them too much power." They will implement laws that will be illogical, impractical and always costly. But the worst of it is, is that money talks so the wealthy will be able to make pay-offs and live under a different set of rules to everyone else under the guise of some made up terminology.

NSW gov, bleeding the people.

 

[krefft]

Thanks Gird. The problem is that DECCW has chosen to exclude us from the final processes. We have sought to meet with them several times this year, we have asked for a copy of the CURRENT draft, but have been told that more input from us is not required. Despite being invited participants in the process, with, collectively, over 250 years of experience, we are excluded from the final (critical) part of the process.

The apathy from many here is a real concern.

DEC picked 12 experts from our hobby for input. They didn't like the input so have gone looking for other experts. Surely this has to set off alarm bells?

MANDITORY cage sizes can't be good for reptiles. Anyone who has been keeping snakes for a prolonged period would know that sometimes a smaller cage suits some animals.

I now keep many of my pythons in racks.
I don't have a large collection and I don't make money from breeding snakes. I've been keeping them since I was 14 and for the first 6 years all I had was whip snakes and swamp snakes.
My point is I keep snakes because I love them.
I'm not in it for the money. Many of them seem to do better in racks. Simple.

If we allow DEC steamroll this through we will all regret it in the long run. We have a wealth of experience amongst the 12 representatives. They have the animals, and our best intentions at heart and they deserve our support.