Re think Cage Sizes

[Bluetongue1]

….
I'm surprised to see Bluetongue1 suggesting that increasing the power of the enforcers might be a helpful step….
Jamie

Thank you for picking that up Jamie. I was being rather naïve in my thinking at that moment in time, despite the reservations I stated with it. What I had in mind would not happen in reality, there is no need for it to happen and any such legislation is then open to applying further restrictions in the future, slyly, bit by bit, eating into one’s civil liberties – which absolutely will happen! I shall alter my comment accordingly.

Mike

 

[Ramsayi]

Thank you for picking that up Jamie. I was being rather naïve in my thinking at that moment in time, despite the reservations I stated with it. What I had in mind would not happen in reality, there is no need for it to happen and any such legislation is then open to applying further restrictions in the future, slyly, bit by bit, eating into one’s civil liberties – which absolutely will happen! I shall alter my comment accordingly.

Mike

Understand too that if the legislation gets up in NSW then the authorities in other states may decide to take the same stance.

 

[longqi]

Slight variations of these proposed rules are already in place in at least three states for Exhibitors and Demonstrators and are pretty vigorously checked in Queensland and NSW at least for Demonstrators [not too sure about checking Exhibitors much now]

Some legislation for private collections is required
By far the easiest was always a simple formula
Length x Weight x ????cubic metres either vertical for arboreal or horizontal for terrestrial
with suggestion ideal combinations of height/width/length

 

[Snowman]

Understand too that if the legislation gets up in NSW then the authorities in other states may decide to take the same stance.

Not WA. DEC refuses to look at how things work in other states That's why we have the worst keeping system in the country and one of the newest ones too.

 

[mysnakesau]

It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all......**

This is just an example but a "one size fits all" means a hatchling BHP in a 4ft tank? You would never see him. He would not thrive. That area is way too big for a lot of snakes. They wouldn't safe finding their way to their warmth, their water and eating would become an issue because they are too cold because they can't find their heat. Not to mention gaps that they can escape from. Newbies aren't as knowing as someone who's had more experience, about the gaps between the glass, and even the width of slots that are cut into timber enclosures for ventilation. I am only 4yr old in this game, too, but I have learnt through experience there just is no advantage or benefit to the animals putting them in enclosures that are too big.

 

[wokka]

Slight variations of these proposed rules are already in place in at least three states for Exhibitors and Demonstrators and are pretty vigorously checked in Queensland and NSW at least for Demonstrators [not too sure about checking Exhibitors much now]

Some legislation for private collections is required
By far the easiest was always a simple formula
Length x Weight x ????cubic metres either vertical for arboreal or horizontal for terrestrial
with suggestion ideal combinations of height/width/length

I am not sure where the "current" draft is up to, but at one stage it was suggested that the code was to be an interim measure and that in 5 years private keepers in nsw would have to meet the nsw demonstrators standard. To make it even more rediculous, we dont even know what the demonstrators standards will be in 5 years .

 

[Pythoninfinite]

i agree with longqi's sizing method in fact i stated it earlier in this thread as it leaves room for individual snake sizes being accomodated for.

This is evidence that we're just you know what in the wind trying to make people aware of the implications of what National Parks is proposing in NSW. For Christ's sake, will you stupid people realise that what longqi or anyone else proposes as reasonable counts for nothing... the department has an idea in its head, and if they don't listen to 12 of the most experienced reptile people (academics, veterinary experts, professional keepers and private keepers with 40+years experience), they're not going to listen to longqi and his anthropomorphic crap and pie-in-the-sky formulae, or Little Miss Muffet or ANYONE ...

The issue is actually about a Government department bringing in laws to address a 'problem' which they cannot tell us actually exists - if you think cruel Joe Bloggs down the road, who makes his snakes jump through flaming hoops on Friday nights is going to be quaking in his boots because suddenly it has become illegal to make snakes jump through flaming hoops... think again. His chances of being caught are next to nil, so life will go on unimpeded for him. We all know of cases of less than satisfactory animal management, but the only way these things can change will be through education, not enforcement. Enforcement will simply drive the offenders even deeper underground.

No Government department should EVER be supported if they try to legislate without clearly demonstrating a need for enforceability, and DECCW has consistently failed to do this.

Jamie

 

[Colin]

It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.

If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.

I should add that all of my enclosures will comply with the proposal but that's hardly the point.The fact that some nuffy who in all likely hood wouldn't know his you know what from his elbow could come in and tell me how I should be keeping my collection is beyond a joke.

great post ramsayi and I totally agree with what your saying. In regard to the situation with your BHPs i have the same situation with jungles.. some locality forms are much smaller than other forms but all still "jungles" plus the fact that all snakes are individuals and some will do better in a smaller enclosure and some in a bigger one. Its the keepers knowledge of their OWN animals that are the best to determine the cage sizes and husbandry methods. this is why we keep them.. because we love them and want to look after them well and see them flourish in captivity.. and and cage size draft should be a SUGGESTED size only for the individual keeper to determine for their OWN individual animals.

we are the ones who successfully keep and breed our animals, not the government.. how many of the confiscated animals that have been in government "care" have DIED over the years? a hell of a lot from what Ive heard.. they can't even keep basic species alive let alone flourish and do well.. and they want to tell us how to keep them? what a joke that is..

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Ha, thanks for the edit Col! Vino can cloud ones judgement sometimes lol!
But the essential message is there... you always have something good to contribute jamie.. sloshed or not

Jamie

 

[Cockney_Red]

theres a few people involved in these government departments that are pushin g for this cage size mandatory introduction that are animal liberationists by whatever name they use.. its still the same brush.. theres been a world wide trend for these people infiltrating government departments and trying to influence the culture of the government depatments to this "animal libber" way of thinking.. the RSPCA is basically an animal libber organization. and PETA are animal libbers

Its been stated by one of these DECC blokes in public he would prefer that no one was allowed to keep native animals at all.. and thats what their aim is.. It has nothing to do with animal welfare or keeping animals properly etc They cant take our licences off us BUT they have used this TROJAN HORSE caging requirment draft to try and force people out of the hobby by making the requirements of keeping our animals financially prohibitive by increasing the enclosue sizes to ridiculous levels.. so if introduced it will start to acheive their aim of forcing people out of the hobby and keeping reptiles by this trojan horse method called the DECC caging mandatory requirement.. even though ALL the actual experts in these fields that have REAL experience with REPTILES say the caging sizes mandatory rules are unecessary and detrimental to the animals.. all this was ignored by the government pushing for its introduction because they dont give a stuff about the animals at all and its all to stop us keeping them. why have the real experts been ignored? why have the DECC gone ito secret mode and are trying to hide what they are doing? Its a scam and because the reptile community are not organised and we fight between ourselves we are seen as an "easy mark" for these animal libbers to divide and conquer.. we need to put our differences aside and we need to join forces into one body (NRKA) and get some good legal representation to take these people on in court. And get some media exposure to shame the ministers and governement enough to stomp on this cage size rubbish.

THATS what I think its all about and have stated this same reason a few years ago on here... nothings changed and these same animal libbers have been manipulating this caging push.. Have a look at the letter from the DDI to the DECC that came with the freedom of information caging docs last year..

Jamie.. come on mate.. have your say

Nail hit on the melon, and by forcing the big breeders out first (and these are the people they will inspect ) the process will hasten. The Hobbyist will then inherit the Earth...

 

[Bluetongue1]

As Jamie said, they want to legislate to fix a problem that does not exist. It would not solve it if it did exist – you only have to look at the extent of the underground keeping system to realise that. Look at what comes out of the woodwork when they have an amnesty. It will, however, impact on honest keepers who have their collection legally and above board. And ONLY on them. Once it is in, you will NOT get rid of it. Once it is in, it will readily and easily be subject to change at the whim of whoever holds political power on the day.

They clearly don’t want to make the legislation flexible in any degree. They do not want to cater for the individual keeper’s experience and discretion. Why? Ramsayi hit the nail on the head. Who is going to do the inspecting and enforcing? Field officers of the Department. People who are responsible for enforcing department regulations on all native fauna, who get minimal training, yet are expected to know all the rules about all the different animals and to apply them appropriately and equitably. How the hell can they? This is why they don’t want flexibility. It allows them to enforce with the ‘tick box’ approach – checklist in one hand and tape measure in the other. Forget about appropriate and equitable and don’t even think about mitigating circumstances.

The reality is that no matter how good the legislation, it can never fully cater for all individual circumstances. The inspectors required to make decisions about enforcement will almost invariably be doing so in ignorance of what the hobby involves. But if they get it wrong, does the Department ever say “Oh, we are sorry, we got that wrong” ? No! Never! They knowing pursue cases where they are in the wrong. That is part of their culture. Close ranks and protect your own! Otherwise the general public might see chinks the armour and stop bending to their will. I am sure there are plenty of examples people could cite. They use the basic bully boy tactic of government vs individual. “If you want to takes us on, at the very least we are going to make you bleed from the wallet as we have the resources that you don’t”. It does happen now. And it most certainly will happen if new legislation is enacted.

What happens now has serious repercussions for the future.

Blue

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"As Jamie said, they want to legislate to fix a problem that does not exist. It would not solve it if it did exist – you only have to look at the extent of the underground keeping system to realise that. Look at what comes out of the woodwork when they have an amnesty. It will, however, impact on honest keepers who have their collection legally and above board. And ONLY on them. Once it is in, you will NOT get rid of it. Once it is in, it will readily and easily be subject to change at the whim of whoever holds political power on the day."

Well said Mike. One of the several elephants in the room is the acknowlegement by the Department that the proposed enclosure sizes will again be changed "within 5 years" to standardise them with those required by the Department of Industry and Investment for commercial exhibitors. All of these interdepartmental discussions, which will affect keepers and the animals in their care, have taken place behind closed doors, with the clear intention of out-manoeuvring any challenges by those who object to mindless Government intervention in their lives.

Mike (Bluetongue1) and I both know how these things work - we were prime movers in the introduction of the keeping system in WA. Over quite a few years we consulted with DEC (then CALM) to build a system that, if not described as a racehorse, at least something that was competitive... We left it with them for 12 months, and bugger me... they gave us back a lame camel! That was 8 years ago now, and the thing still hasn't been seen by a vet!

That's a worry.

Jamie

 

[Colin]

Nail hit on the melon, and by forcing the big breeders out first (and these are the people they will inspect ) the process will hasten. The Hobbyist will then inherit the Earth...

the thing is I really dont think they will force big breeders and large scale hobbyists out of the hobby.. they may force them underground though.. and I think thats a step backwards. Im sure we all want to abide by FAIR rules and regulations and agree there must be some there for the keeping of native fauna. But I feel we are over regulated and getting more and more overregulated by government when theres really no need in my opinion..

 

[Chris1]

It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.

If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.

I should add that all of my enclosures will comply with the proposal but that's hardly the point.The fact that some nuffy who in all likely hood wouldn't know his you know what from his elbow could come in and tell me how I should be keeping my collection is beyond a joke.

ahh, i see where youre coming from, so my palmerston jungles will need monster cages even tho theyre only going to grow to 5 foot max cos the athertons get bigger? the water bowls thing is ridiculous, (what about shinglebacks who dont like humidity?) and i guess the deeper you delve the more ridiculous it gets,..im all for some kind of rules regarding sizing

 

[abnrmal91]

I am sorry but they can go shove it were the sun doesn't shine. I keep my snake in enclosures large enough for the size snake. Given that my Bredli only uses about 5% of it's enclosure, just sits in it's hide all the time. Most people look after their snake fair better then they probably need. If the DECCW (or what ever they changed the name to) want to do something to help reptiles. Go protect the endangered species. Captive snakes don't matter really. Its the ones in the wild they should worry about. Kindly sod off

 

[Ramsayi]

I am sorry but they can go shove it were the sun doesn't shine. I keep my snake in enclosures large enough for the size snake. Given that my Bredli only uses about 5% of it's enclosure, just sits in it's hide all the time. Most people look after their snake fair better then they probably need. If the DECCW (or what ever they changed the name to) want to do something to help reptiles. Go protect the endangered species. Captive snakes don't matter really. Its the ones in the wild they should worry about. Kindly sod off

Don't get me started on that.The NPWS,DECC or whatever it is they call themselves these days would provide a much better service looking after and improving the national parks and occupants therein than interfering with what are essentially pets so far removed from the wild that it isn't even funny.By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?

 

[wokka]

If the regulations are applied there will be:
animals which should be in small cages forced to be kept in large cages;
animal kept in high humidity (due to 24/7 water), which would do better in lower humidity;
animals which need a fixed temperature (such as sick animals which dont thermoregulate) will be forced to be kept with a temperature gradient.
How will this benefit these animals?
We will go from a situation where most keepers keep their animals in the best individual circumstances, to keepers having to "tick the boxes" at the expense of the animal.

By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?

Yes thats fine, or you can get a permit to shoot them, just as long as you dont export them out of the country!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?"

Yes you are, and there's nothing sadder than a highly intelligent and social bird, which would be in the company of others of its kind 24/7 from hatch till death, being confined to a prison like this for its entire life, often only being fed sunflower seed, and getting no attention at all.

But those reptile keepers... they're the neglectful, dodgy ones...

Says something about priorities I think...

Jamie

 

[Colin]

Jamie and other Expert Advisory Group members.. I've noticed that that last DECC caging draft obtained under the freedom of information act has been posted here and elsewhere but as far as I can see the letters between the DECC and DPI (or whatever its now called) were not posted up?

Are we allowed to post these up seeing they were obtained under the freedom of information act? Im sure people would find the content most interesting.. I can easily PDF them and post these up tomorrow if its allowed?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

It is certainly allowed Col - anything obtained under FOI is considered to be in the public domain.

Are you referring to where DECCW got a smack from DII for not wording the draft so that it ensured successful enforcement prospects? DII is the prime mover in all of this - they have been coaching the dudes at DECCW (or whatever it's called now) to get tough on herp keepers for some years now.

Go for it!

Jamie