abnrmal91
Very Well-Known Member
It would be good to see if we could. Cheers Daniel
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It would be good to see if we could. Cheers Daniel
Colin
morelia
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yes mate I am.. thats the one and will PDF it tomorrow (watch this space)
killimike
Well-Known Member
I will be watching and waiting Colin 
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I find it rather interesting that you have a department that wants to produce enforceable requirements on a hobby they know absolutely nothing about. Why would you want to do that? They had to have input from experts who do know to get started. Yet now those same people are completely excluded. Yet the drafting process and changes continue. On what basis are they making their decisions now? Where are they getting their input? I shudder to think. Why is the ship still sailing when there is no-one competent on board to steer it? It does not take an Einstein to recognise from the above that animal welfare has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with this push for legislation. If they had animal welfare at heart, they would be taking on board ALL that the experts have to offer because they are the people who know how to meet the requirements of these animals. Is that happening???
Categorising animals into A, B, C & D or Hatchling & Adult does not reflect the reality of the range of differences found in animals (and that’s ignoring the glaring errors of animals clearly in wrong categories). It does not allow for the individuality and variation that reptiles display. When you start looking at a widespread species, size in particular often varies with location. This is particularly so with most of the python species and the differences can be very marked, particularly in the larger species. Their attempt to lump species into boxes just does not cut the mustard. Anybody with a first-hand knowledge of nature or a basic understanding of genetics, knows about biological variation. Why is that those entrusted with looking after the welfare of our native fauna do not seem to understand this basic biologial fact???
In relation to Fay’s OP, I would like to know what happened to the concept of Juvenile. Add to that the behavioural differences that occur within a species. Each snake is an individual and something like cage size depends upon behavioural readiness rather than size or age. Natural behavioural repertoires and space have been mentioned in posts already. Add to this the differing rates of development of individual reptiles which directly influence behaviour and therefore enclosure requirements, and you obviously need a degree of flexibility to meet the needs of individual reptiles. This system does NOT take into account that need. The way it is geared, you will be forced to compromise the welfare of a section of your animals if you are to meet the requirements they seek to impose on you. Bottom line… if you had to have a system, you wouldn’t want this one!!!
Blue
Categorising animals into A, B, C & D or Hatchling & Adult does not reflect the reality of the range of differences found in animals (and that’s ignoring the glaring errors of animals clearly in wrong categories). It does not allow for the individuality and variation that reptiles display. When you start looking at a widespread species, size in particular often varies with location. This is particularly so with most of the python species and the differences can be very marked, particularly in the larger species. Their attempt to lump species into boxes just does not cut the mustard. Anybody with a first-hand knowledge of nature or a basic understanding of genetics, knows about biological variation. Why is that those entrusted with looking after the welfare of our native fauna do not seem to understand this basic biologial fact???
In relation to Fay’s OP, I would like to know what happened to the concept of Juvenile. Add to that the behavioural differences that occur within a species. Each snake is an individual and something like cage size depends upon behavioural readiness rather than size or age. Natural behavioural repertoires and space have been mentioned in posts already. Add to this the differing rates of development of individual reptiles which directly influence behaviour and therefore enclosure requirements, and you obviously need a degree of flexibility to meet the needs of individual reptiles. This system does NOT take into account that need. The way it is geared, you will be forced to compromise the welfare of a section of your animals if you are to meet the requirements they seek to impose on you. Bottom line… if you had to have a system, you wouldn’t want this one!!!
Blue
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Colin
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exactly right mike. what is driving the forced introduction of these mandatory rules? maybe it is the agenda of a few animal liberationist types that are pushing it.
and to respond to your second and third paragraph I quote my own earlier post
and to respond to your second and third paragraph I quote my own earlier post
Snake_Whisperer
Very Well-Known Member
In regards to Fay's original post, exactly. Not only have I had to downsize on many occasions, it worked magnificently in getting troublesome animals to eat, as well as calm down. Shock of the century.... they simply did better in small tubs! This is not a treatice for people to go hog wild cramming 15Kg olives into 52L tubs, merely an illustration that dowsizing is sometimes NECESSARY!
Per the above, Fay's and countless others' experience, and the work of Jamie et. al. , it defies logic, that mandatory cage sizes would be forced through despite the recommendations shared by some of the most experienced keepers in Australian herpetoculture. If logic is defied, there can be only one reason...politics.
Per the above, Fay's and countless others' experience, and the work of Jamie et. al. , it defies logic, that mandatory cage sizes would be forced through despite the recommendations shared by some of the most experienced keepers in Australian herpetoculture. If logic is defied, there can be only one reason...politics.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Yup SW, that about sums it up. You are 100% correct with regard to the calming effect smaller enclosures have on some snakes. And of course, none of the experienced keepers engaged in this process with OEH are suggesting that 15kg Olives should be kept in 52 litre tubs! The keeping of these animals is essentially a balancing act between what we provide and what our animals need - there cannot be a "one size fits all" approach brought into law simply for bureaucratic convenience, and to make it easier for them to slam reptile keepers even harder.
That's what this is all about.
Jamie
B
Bluetongue1
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It is sad. You would imagine if there was a perceived problem that education should be the first option rather than enforcement. Provide the guidance without the “do it or else” hanging over your head. This would allow them to provide realistic guidelines per species and sizes, on a species by species basis. So much more useful and appropriate than the current lumping into categories! It would also allow for keeper discretion. This way you would not be penalising the multitudes for the sake of the supposed few offenders.
Education is in the best interests of the animals and would be welcomed by most, I am sure. So why not take the educational approach first and see if it works? It would be a lot less troublesome for the department and a lot less costly I will warrant. Why are they so hell bent on the least preferred and most difficult option of enforcement? Why do they not want to try education?...
Blu
Education is in the best interests of the animals and would be welcomed by most, I am sure. So why not take the educational approach first and see if it works? It would be a lot less troublesome for the department and a lot less costly I will warrant. Why are they so hell bent on the least preferred and most difficult option of enforcement? Why do they not want to try education?...
Blu
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Colin
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here we are.. these are the letters that precedded the draft that I received that were obtained under the freedon of information act. The DECC letter 3 that you refer to in your above quote had to be made into three parts to upload the full 15 pages.
note in letter one its suggested the RSPCA (aren't they now run by the animal liberationists?) and "animal welfare groups (I read animal liberation groups) strongly support the inclusion of MANDATORY cage sizes in the draft.
I look forward to your comments jamie..
download the PDF files and have a good read.. distribute to your reptile keeping friends too..
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Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
I wonder what they will do if they get their way and we all take a visit to Hurstville and drop off a heap of animals because our enclosures don't quite measure up?
I love a couple of lines in the first PDF,
*Satisfy a widespread public expectation that good animal welfare is promoted by the government.
Last time I looked I wasn't running a zoo and access to my collection to the public is not and will not ever occur.
*Educate reptile keepers about basic housing and husbandry requirements.
I think most of us know more about what is required than the people regulating the current laws.Hell they can't properly even ID reptiles that they ballot out.
*Bring captive reptiles into line with other captive animals (eg animals in petshops,birds)
I keep thinking of those dirty great white cockys living their entire lives in those pissy little wire cages.
*Bring NSW into line with other states such as Victoria and Qld that have codes of practice for private keeping of reptiles.
Anyone in Vic or Qld care to comment on mandatory minimum cage sizes in those states or are they guidelines only?
I love a couple of lines in the first PDF,
*Satisfy a widespread public expectation that good animal welfare is promoted by the government.
Last time I looked I wasn't running a zoo and access to my collection to the public is not and will not ever occur.
*Educate reptile keepers about basic housing and husbandry requirements.
I think most of us know more about what is required than the people regulating the current laws.Hell they can't properly even ID reptiles that they ballot out.
*Bring captive reptiles into line with other captive animals (eg animals in petshops,birds)
I keep thinking of those dirty great white cockys living their entire lives in those pissy little wire cages.
*Bring NSW into line with other states such as Victoria and Qld that have codes of practice for private keeping of reptiles.
Anyone in Vic or Qld care to comment on mandatory minimum cage sizes in those states or are they guidelines only?
Maybe write the Minister a letter addressing your concerns and ask for a reply back within a certain amount of time? It doesn't hurt to ask how their decisions were made or how they are going to be enforced. Another alternative is to just never answer a knock at the door.
Ramsayi
Very Well-Known Member
Unfortunately they have as much power if not more than the police do in regard to entering a premises.
abnrmal91
Very Well-Known Member
Maybe a letter bomb would work. Lol joking.
They clearly know nothing about reptiles. What they are propesing is impractical. There is no evidence that this code of practice is required. I am all for the welfare of animal to be protect them from cruelty. (note that RSPCA has still done nothing about the neglected snakes in QLD). This document seems the be a detriment to there welfare. If we are constrained to comply with certain temp requirements irrespective if the animal is sick.
Are the DECCW going to come out and measure our snakes? By all means they can measure my crazy Bredli. Just wish I had an eastern brown lol.
If this goes ahead I can see that alot of people would go underground.
S
Snowman
Guest
I can't open the last pdf. Anyone else having same problem?
it opens for me but heres another upload
it opens for me but heres another upload
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Snake_Whisperer
Very Well-Known Member
Happy to oblige! In Qld, we have a code of practice that ismeant as your guideline to keeping captive reptiles. It does contain enclosure standards but, as they should be, they are RECOMMENDED sizes. The onus is on the keeper to provided the proper standards for his/her animals. There is even provision for live feeding in our COP. I have heard through very reliable channels that QLD may be headed for a similar "mandatory caging" system, but given the example the other day in Townsville, I'm not too stressed about it.
Code of Practice
Sock Puppet
Very Well-Known Member
They won't be measuring animals at all. If your Bredl's is 12 months old, or older, it will need an enclosure of minimum dimensions outlined in the code for an adult Bredl's, doesn't matter how big the actual animal is. Don't forget those minimum sizes will apparently increase in 5 years, as well.
S
Snowman
Guest
It is highly unlikely. Following the floods and cyclone, DERM's funding is at its worse ever. They are even reducing their vehicle pool.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
DECCW or OEH or whatever, here in NSW, suggests that they are coming into line with Vic & Qld, but this is misleading. Both those states have non-enforceable GUIDELINES and do not mandate minimum standards.
There is a plan to introduce mandatory standards Australia-wide, which is interesting... they can get together to constrain keepers in this manner, but the individual states can't even begin to get their acts together when it comes to nationwide licensing and wildlife management standards, which is supposedly their major brief.
Jamie
There is a plan to introduce mandatory standards Australia-wide, which is interesting... they can get together to constrain keepers in this manner, but the individual states can't even begin to get their acts together when it comes to nationwide licensing and wildlife management standards, which is supposedly their major brief.
Jamie
Pardon me for budding in as a Queenslander but this issue is of concern to all reptile keepers.
Looking back over the years, the NARKA (or something like that) have not achieved much at all. I am not saying they haven't done much but the results are poor at least to say.
You people need a new army with a new general. Form an organisation that will have a web site where (unlike on forums) you can publish names, phone numbers and email addresses of those individuals who are instrumental in this cage size nonsense, the complex licensing and restrictions on Interstate Trade. A web side where we all can make donations for the cause. The general and his 2ICs must be people with no commercial interest, with nothing to loose and with plenty of vigor.
One or two names keep popping up prominently, this person is not the "driver" (the animal libs are), he is the "administrator" and he must go. That has to be the step number one - take out their general. That can be achieved by relentless bombardment of emails and phone calls, not only to him but to his cronies and superiors as well, including the Minister and MPs. Don't underestimate the people's power, they knocked down the Berlin wall, so what is one sick Department in comparison?
Michael
Looking back over the years, the NARKA (or something like that) have not achieved much at all. I am not saying they haven't done much but the results are poor at least to say.
You people need a new army with a new general. Form an organisation that will have a web site where (unlike on forums) you can publish names, phone numbers and email addresses of those individuals who are instrumental in this cage size nonsense, the complex licensing and restrictions on Interstate Trade. A web side where we all can make donations for the cause. The general and his 2ICs must be people with no commercial interest, with nothing to loose and with plenty of vigor.
One or two names keep popping up prominently, this person is not the "driver" (the animal libs are), he is the "administrator" and he must go. That has to be the step number one - take out their general. That can be achieved by relentless bombardment of emails and phone calls, not only to him but to his cronies and superiors as well, including the Minister and MPs. Don't underestimate the people's power, they knocked down the Berlin wall, so what is one sick Department in comparison?
Michael
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