the JAG/RPM morph neurological issues.

[giggle]

I dont debate whether people should breed them, just that people are fully aware before they purchase. I know a lot of responsible people will be telling their buyers. But there are some that wont... and being the weirdo I am, I would love to see that everyone has the opportunity to have that information

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Heres a quality post from ARF by Professor Justin Julander from the USA
Who recently spoke at the Cairns Herp symposiem .


Hey guys, coming from the US, we have been through all this before, not only with the jaguar carpet pythons but also with the spider ball python morph. I didn't go throught the many pages and posts, but I have been through this, so I have a pretty good guess of the conversation. The primary thing is that people were likely not informed before they spent a lot of money on a jag project. This also happened in the US. First off, there is a lot of info out there on jags on other forums such as moreliapythons. It may not be the breeders fault, as shipping may induce such neurological abnormalities, so an otherwise perfectly normal snake could display such aberrant behavior after shipping. More below. Rest assured, your investment is still strong, you just need to get the word out about the potential for abnormal behavior.

Research in other species has shown that during development, neural crest cells co-migrate with melanin, and when the species has reduced pattern and reduced melanin, such as with the jag, you will have improper neural development. Neuropathy is associated with the jag trait and there is no way around it. Outbreeding has not fixed it, and anywhere the jag trait goes, the neuro problems go with it. It is inherent in the morph and that is what it is.

I have seen some that display hardly any symptoms, while others are so bad they fall off the perch and corkscrew everywhere they go. Even the most severely affected animals will breed, feed, and live an otherwise normal life, aside from some wacky movements here and there.

Also, there are things that will set off more severe abnormal neural behavior, such as stress. I had a subadult female jaguar that showed no signs, until I took her to a show as a display. When I got her home, she started doing the looping behavior and still has the symptoms. Stress is a common trigger for neuro abnormalities.

Well, I hope you all make it past this and enjoy the morph for what it is. You will never entirely remove the neuro issues and you will never produce a viable super leucy, at least these things are highly unlikely. Just be aware and be happy with the cool characteristics of the morph. Hope I don't come off high and mighty, just thought some overseas experience could help.

I keep and breed jags and they sell fine over here. Actually, they kept their value far longer than I ever hoped for a co-dom with a lethal super. It just has to be disclosed that it is part of the mutation.


Cheers!

Justin
Australian Addiction Reptiles

 

[PimmsPythons]

The whole jag/neuro issue has been making out of a mole hill. to an untrained eye not many would ever notice the neuro issue in jags. any signs of neuro issues only seem to show when they are put in a very stressful situation for example(and the only time i have seen it),if you put 2 males together around mating time and they start combating.
The simple solution is to not put them in a very stressful situation and they will live a full and happy life with no dramas.
i have also taken mine to 3 expos now(which is fairly stressful for snakes) and it has shown no neuro issues and i have seen 4 other jags at expos not showing any problems.
i personally don't think the neuro issues can get bred out of it but in saying that, the percentage of them that have a serious neuro problem is incredibly small.
So ,if you like jags,buy one, don't put it in a very stressful situation and you shouldn't have any dramas.but also be aware that there can potentially get issues later(i personally haven't seen it though).the breeder will make you aware of it and you shouldn't go back in 3 years time asking for your money back.its like buying a breed of dog that is prone to hip issues,you know what you are getting yourself in for and you don't ask for a refund 3 years down the track because your dog cant walk.
If you don't like them, don't buy one.simple.
cheers
simon

 

[giggle]

Heres a quality post from ARF by Professor Justin Julander from the USA
Who recently spoke at the Cairns Herp symposiem

Thank you heaps roger That is a fantastic post.

 

[giggle]

its like buying a breed of dog that is prone to hip issues,you know what you are getting yourself in for and you don't ask for a refund 3 years down the track because your dog cant walk.

Um... no. Its not the same. Hip dysplasia is a genetic fault that can be bred out and moreso there is a test for it and not all prone breeds are affected. I wouldn't go comparing to that, that would make an irresponsible breeder.

 

[Jay84]

Has anyone stopped to think what is going to happen when jags are bred in numbers and start being sold in pet stores?

What do you mean? They are sold in pet stores the world over. I have seen many for sale in UK pet stores. ?

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Good thing I asked Justin to post in that thread. I'll see if I can get him to be part of this discussion. There are 4 video clips that I made at the Cairns symposium where he touches on the neuro issues. The video quality is not that good. I will try to reload it into YouTube in better quality this afternoon.

 

[D3pro]

Whao... dejavu... *facepalm*

I agree with the people that said "research before you buy" nothing more.

 

[PimmsPythons]

Um... no. Its not the same. Hip dysplasia is a genetic fault that can be bred out and moreso there is a test for it and not all prone breeds are affected. I wouldn't go comparing to that, that would make an irresponsible breeder.

i admit ,i'm not a dog expert and it was meant to be a broard example. maybe diamond pythons and DPS is a better comparison.anyhow ,you know what i'm getting at.many breeds of animals have issues. just be aware of them.
cheers
simon

 

[Kurama]

This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.

"Neuro Jags"

 

[giggle]

i admit ,i'm not a dog expert and it was meant to be a broard example. maybe diamond pythons and DPS is a better comparison.anyhow ,you know what i'm getting at.many breeds of animals have issues. just be aware of them.
cheers
simon

Ha ha its funny cause Im not snake expert but I think its a better comparison?

A while back a similar thing happened with rats in Australia... a new morph 'blue rat' was discovered. They were beautiful and very popular... but the blue gene was linked to a type of haemophilic response. Instead of sensibly breeding the animals a blanket ban was put on them. Initially I was going to run trial breedings and was set to do so with the guidance of the club... but my circumstances had dramatically changed in a short period and i never got to run the trials.

Carpetpythons.com.au... I know I personally would love to see more info and thanks for setting up the initial posts Also, seriously, thank you for your honesty and open attitude it really is admirable

 

[jgjulander]

Good to be aware of this issue, so you don't go through all the garbage we went through. I didn't really notice the issue in our animals for a while, and initially at hatching, only 10% may show the symptoms right out of the egg. The rest may display symptoms at any time later on in life, and I don't believe any jag is completely free from the possibility of displaying neuro issues. Some may show very minor symptoms such as slight shaking during anticipation of feeding or during defensive displays. Others will loop de loop after a stressful event. It is impossible to predict, so no real gurantee should be given, unless the breeder is willing to replace an adult animal as was mentioned above. It sounds like you guys here are handling this reasonably well compared to the heated discussions on some US forums after we were informed of the neuro issues.

It is difficult when you are early in on a morph project to know what is really associated issues with a morph. Say you breed an aberrant carpet to a normal and get some that look the same. One has an abnormal tail tip with a knob at the end, while the other doesn't. Do you report this right off the bat as an issue with the morph, or do you wait until the next clutch to get a bit more data or do you wait for several clutches including outbreeding to verify it before you get the word out? It is hard to say what the best time is to make everyone aware, as initial morph breedings often involve inbreeding, so it is difficult to say early on in a morph project. Prime example: Granite IJ carpets are fairly weak at hatching and some females have had reproductive problems. So far, most if not all of the granites have been produced from one line, without much if any outcrossing. Is the weakness due to inbreeding and the line the morph originated with, or is it due to the morph?

I would suggest that it is good to make any issues known right off the get go with morph projects. It is just something that doesn't occur often enough. So many morph breeders, especially with ball pythons, always give some aura of mystique to increase sales. I guess that goes with anything people are trying to make money off of, but it is definitely an unfortunate consequence. I thought I had some info concerning the neuro issues of jags on my site, but apparently I never got around to putting up the jaguar 101 page, so I am not free from this either. By the time we bought our jaguar male, all of these things were out in the open in the US, but I should probably get it up soon anyway for reasons such as entry into markets in other countries.

Anyway, hope this input helps somewhat. I really hope you guys can avoid the crap we went through. I really enjoyed visiting your country and am excited to return. You guys have the best herps!

Cheers,
Justin
Australian Addiction Reptiles

 

[FAY]

I personally feel that Jags/RPM's whatever you want to call them are here whether any of us like it or not.
I also feel that APS, being responsible should make members aware about issues with these snakes.
Thank you Roger for that post. It is very informative.
Like Jay said....don't beware but BE aware that there CAN be issues with them, on what scale I don't think anyone really knows.

Please keep this topic on track.

 

[FAY]

Good to be aware of this issue, so you don't go through all the garbage we went through. I didn't really notice the issue in our animals for a while, and initially at hatching, only 10% may show the symptoms right out of the egg. The rest may display symptoms at any time later on in life, and I don't believe any jag is completely free from the possibility of displaying neuro issues. Some may show very minor symptoms such as slight shaking during anticipation of feeding or during defensive displays. Others will loop de loop after a stressful event. It is impossible to predict, so no real gurantee should be given, unless the breeder is willing to replace an adult animal as was mentioned above. It sounds like you guys here are handling this reasonably well compared to the heated discussions on some US forums after we were informed of the neuro issues.

It is difficult when you are early in on a morph project to know what is really associated issues with a morph. Say you breed an aberrant carpet to a normal and get some that look the same. One has an abnormal tail tip with a knob at the end, while the other doesn't. Do you report this right off the bat as an issue with the morph, or do you wait until the next clutch to get a bit more data or do you wait for several clutches including outbreeding to verify it before you get the word out? It is hard to say what the best time is to make everyone aware, as initial morph breedings often involve inbreeding, so it is difficult to say early on in a morph project. Prime example: Granite IJ carpets are fairly weak at hatching and some females have had reproductive problems. So far, most if not all of the granites have been produced from one line, without much if any outcrossing. Is the weakness due to inbreeding and the line the morph originated with, or is it due to the morph?

I would suggest that it is good to make any issues known right off the get go with morph projects. It is just something that doesn't occur often enough. So many morph breeders, especially with ball pythons, always give some aura of mystique to increase sales. I guess that goes with anything people are trying to make money off of, but it is definitely an unfortunate consequence. I thought I had some info concerning the neuro issues of jags on my site, but apparently I never got around to putting up the jaguar 101 page, so I am not free from this either. By the time we bought our jaguar male, all of these things were out in the open in the US, but I should probably get it up soon anyway for reasons such as entry into markets in other countries.

Anyway, hope this input helps somewhat. I really hope you guys can avoid the crap we went through. I really enjoyed visiting your country and am excited to return. You guys have the best herps!

Cheers,
Justin
Australian Addiction Reptiles

Thank you Justin, your input is most welcomed!

 

[FusionMorelia]

for us newbies, what are we talking about here with neuro issues?
what something little that shows and whats something severe? is it just gazing and spiraling? how bad is the spiraling?
what else happens? does it make them more violent/aggressive?

 

[giggle]

Thanks Justin!

You are absolutely right, sometimes at the beginning of a morph it is hard to separate whether issues are morph or line related.
It is fantastic you are talking about it and I do have to agree that providing guarantees would be difficult. I also would be more inclined to make all possibilities known to the buyer initially and state there are no guarantees.
Rather like buying a chinese crested dog... you know it has no hair when you buy it and by buying it you make a committment to putting sunscreen on its skin every day of its life for up to 20years. I guess the same thing applies to this morph If you know you are buying a morph that may exhibit neural issues, you are making a commitment to providing as stress free environment as possible.

If buyers go into it knowing they may end up with a degree of neural issues... if they end up with a bub with no to little neuro issues then they can have a pleasant surprise, rather than the other way around.

I think some people have put in some great info I went from knowing zero to learning a fair bit more about the morph.
I have recently been made aware of a post on another forum about this issue, but it never came up on any of my searches. Maybe when Justin has finished his page regarding the morph, there could be a simple link his page from sticky? If Justin would be ok with that?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Just a question from someone who knows little of these genetics - if a jag is bred with any of our carpet subspecies, will the progeny of a breeding like that be affected, or carry the means to pass the condition onto animals bred in the future? I ask this with particular regard to more 'normal' looking progeny which may end up in the system, unaccompanied with details of heritage.

Regards to Justin!

Jamie

 

[giggle]

for us newbies, what are we talking about here with neuro issues?
what something little that shows and whats something severe? is it just gazing and spiraling? how bad is the spiraling?
what else happens? does it make them more violent/aggressive?

Good questions. I had to go watch a youtube vid someone posted to know.

From an experienced point of view it may not seem like much. But from my completely inexperienced view the video was distressing... if I had my beloved new snake start showing such symptoms I would completely and utterly freak out, I would be rather distressed myself. Though learning a bit more on the subject gives me a bit more comfort. In all circumstances education is the solution. It also gives me rather a lot of comfort knowing that the breeders are open to discuss it and have very open standards about it. I don't know why Gunny mocked my view on that. :|

 

[beeman]

Jamie, I would asume that the genes would be passed onto the offspring
with that mating and would more than likely develope into an issue with the normal looking animals.
We are able to through the likes of AI in my industry (beekeeping) to insert any gene we wish to into our breeding stock to create our breeders which in turn are used to produce our commercial hive queens and all the material is represented in this reproduction so i would assume this would be the case for your above question.
regards
Craig

 

[ad]

This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.

"Neuro Jags"

"I can give one example from a Benjamin X Madame Blueberry Red Hypo Jag female I had. One of her clutches, out popped the nicest, most reduced patterned red hypo jag I have ever seen, let alone had the priviledge to produce. "He's the One" was what I named him. He began to show slight neuro signs at about 6 months of age. Only during feeding, at first it began with a few missed strikes here and there, but suddenly he went from slightly Neuro to the most extreme neuro I have ever witnessed, a total transformation right in front of my eyes. Here's what happened, the last meal I offered him, he missed the pinky, then somehow wrapped his body around his own neck and began to choke himself! I watched in horror as his mouth opened and closed gasping for a breath while his own body was trying to sufficate him. I pried him open and he immediately turned himself into an upside down pretzle. And I agonized over it for about a whole 4-6 hours before I put him down. Everytime I opened his bin there he was, writhing around all contorted, literally tying himself in knots. It really was a sad sight. It was more than sad, it was sickening to watch, he couldn't function at any level. I have culled plenty of others, but He's the One was the worst case I had ever seen prior to and since as well. "

To give a balanced view to what neuro issues in Jags is like, here is a less rosy version from a jag keeper.
If people youtube search 'neuro jag' they will also be able to form a better awareness of the problems in these snakes.

2 experienced herpers have been very unhappy about neuro issues in their jags in Australia already, both wanted refunds, 1 got his, the other didnt.
I think it will be the only refund ever in this country, so be aware.
The neuro issues in these snakes were obviously worse that what they wanted in their animals otherwise they wouldnt have asked for the refunds.
As these neuro issues crop up any time in the life of the animal, you would be wise to consider carefully before purchasing one of these animals.

This is a great stance by the site Faye. So if we are going to raise awareness, lets not sugar coat it either.
Cheers
Adam.