the JAG/RPM morph neurological issues.

[jgjulander]

Hello Jamie, great to see you on here! The neuro issues are only associated with the jag trait, so all the normal siblings of jags will not have any issues. Also, outbreeding will not improve the neuro issues because the jag trait is likely associated with neurological development during the time in the egg. If you have a jag, unfortunately, you have the chance of neuro defects. That said, I have only had 1 or 2 out of all the jags we have hatched that have had obvious neuro signs out of the egg, although in the others you will see it mildly here or there as they develop. This is a great morph, despite the down side, and the pros outweigh the cons.
Cheers,
Justin

 

[buck]

This has been posted in another forum, hope its cool if i put it here.

"Neuro Jags"

I strongly suggest anyone thinking of purchasing a Jag read the thread in this link. It contains some great information and will help make an informed decision from a balanced view. I hope that the Mods will allow it to stay despite the site rules.
Roger, well done for starting it also!!!!!
I get the feeling that I may have been coming across anti Jag from earlier posts. To be honest I still don't know how I feel about them. Some of them are amazingly looking snakes but morally/ethically I just don't know. I have showed my wife(she hates snakes) some footage on youtube of some jags with neuro issues and she said she felt physically disturbed having watched it.
My main concern is alot of untruth and mis-information that was surrounding the Jags out here. My questioning in another thread was an attempt to try and make people aware that the "results" being quoted here are not typical of what is happening OS.

 

[giggle]

When I looked on youtube I found a 'jag sibling' with neuro problems. I think jag sibling is what they call the normal looking version from jag parents?

I guess that is the interesting question... my scientific side would love to see the results of breeding trials And I would love to know if others have bred reduced patterned animals from completely unrelated stock that have the same neural issues? I think a pure MD python with reduced patterns was being sold recently. If it is pure then clearly it is from completely unrelated lines, I wonder how it and its offspring will fair?

Im sorry to those that feel this has been done to death But I think previous threads are not available and newbies like me are in the dark. Thanks for being patient, with me especially! lol

Just a question from someone who knows little of these genetics - if a jag is bred with any of our carpet subspecies, will the progeny of a breeding like that be affected, or carry the means to pass the condition onto animals bred in the future? I ask this with particular regard to more 'normal' looking progeny which may end up in the system, unaccompanied with details of heritage.

Regards to Justin!

Jamie

 

[jgjulander]

One additional point, as I hadn't really observed much in the way of neuro symptoms, I visited a friend who kept jags who had a male jag, a VERY nice male, that was so bad he would fall off his perch as he cruised the cage. This was pretty shocking to me as well and I am not sure what I would do with an animal like that. This animal bred and ate normally, just had issues moving around. It is hard to say if this is distressing to the animal, but if they are feeding and producing offspring, I would think it safe to say they are fairly OK with it.
Justin

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Justin, and good to know you're still alive and kicking in the good ol' US of A! I hope to renew our acquaintance next year in Sydney... please bring your dad back too!

Jamie.

 

[Jason]

Go through a reputable breeder and you won't have to worry about this issue. Reputable breeders have guarantees on their animals...

it does not matter of where you buy your JAGs from, the problem is genetic hence good or bad breeder, the risk is all the same. unfortunately it is the dark side of keeping/breeding JAGs that keepers cannot avoid... breeders just need to be responsible and cull any animals showing issues (imo) and warn any potential newbie/unaware buyers of what problems are associated with JAGs.

there is a well know reputable breeder who has sold a couple of animals with some serious nuero problems and even though the animal they where breed from and the individual animals themselves showed signs of nuero, the breeder did nothing, not even for-warm the purchaser/s! i will not mention names because i will get banned from APS.

 

[buck]

Im sorry to those that feel this has been done to death But I think previous threads are not available and newbies like me are in the dark. Thanks for being patient, with me especially! lol

I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.

From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.

 

[D3pro]

From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.

No no, I have no interest in jags at this time (maybe in the future) and I am kinda over it. But I have been personally talking to jag breeders and some people who feel they were ripped off and some that were, I have heard all sides to this story and I can honestly say I am over it. It doesn't take anymore then 5 minutes on google to find out about this issue. Here is a helpful link for you newbies Jag Neuro Problems

No offence to you or your opinions buck.

Cheers,

 

[giggle]

Justin, it looked like in the videos I saw, that they seemed happy enough to start off with, nearly normal snakes.
What it seemed like to me was the animal had a neurological issue 100% of the time but not visible to us because it normally didn't present a problem to the snake. It was when the snake tried to do something that required use of a neurological function that they could not perform that symptoms start appearing. Their inability to perform those functions seems to stress them further, allowing them to spiral out of control.

Being able to calm them may be useful information to jag owners

From someone with her own neurological issues to contend with... I live a relatively normal life but do acknowledge stress can make my life downright ridiculous. However, a snake doesn't need to try to drive to work with a whirly head Or try to cook a meal when they attempt to make their hand go one way and it goes an entirely different way into the hotplate instead LOL
I have stress minimizing techniques but we cant teach it to our snakes lol But we can probably figure out how to minimize or eliminate their stress as they have an episode.

Forgot to ad... I understand why not being able to do something would stress them out and make the issue worse. But at the same time, I know if I had a life where all I had to do was sit in an enclosure looking pretty, having hot meals prepared for me and my home cleaned and meticulously maintained for me... it wouldn't be such a bad life afterall lol I would suggest most jags with neuro issues would have the same level of neurological issue as each other, however just like people, some cope better than others Just like people, some may find ways to cope with their different abilities and therefore never get too stressed about it... and some may never find a way to live happily the way they are. I may be wrong, but thats my guess.

 

[FusionMorelia]

why wade into a discussion you are sick to death of? was it to show off your sharp google link?
i love search engines but its not the same as a discussion with actual breeders now is it?
i like some of these animals and am interested in buying a high end animal if i find that special specimen
im a newbie and i think this thread is informative and helpful, speaking to actual morph/jag/rpm
(or what ever their called) breeders you get a feel for them as a person cause im sure as hell going to to business with
someone with respect, honesty and integrity over some smart mouth person who trys to confuse and misdirect you.

 

[giggle]

No no, I have no interest in jags at this time (maybe in the future) and I am kinda over it.

I guess it wouldnt hurt you one way or another if you didnt read it

 

[giggle]

i like some of these animals and am interested in buying a high end animal if i find that special specimen
im a newbie and i think this thread is informative and helpful, speaking to actual morph/jag/rpm

I have to agree here The whole thing is growing on me, the more information I am able to obtain and the more respect I gain for those involved. It may even be something to look at in the future as I have totally fallen in love with my first little snake I can tell I will end up with more and probably something with a much higher price tag and a more unique look.

Had I not been allowed the opportunity to discuss this and learn more then I wouldn't be as comfortable with the whole thing. I may be one person and of no consequence, but you can bet if I feel this way then there are at least ten more that share my view.
It doesn't just have a positive effect on the morph itself, but on the hobby as a whole. I was always impressed that this hobby was so keen to welcome newbies (especially compared to other hobbies!).

 

[jgjulander]

Giggle, I hadn't thought of that aspect, that the neuro issue could be a source of stress. Not sure if they register that or not, but it is definitely an interesting thought.

I haven't witnessed any jag sibs with neuro issues. I would be interested to see the youtube link for that one.

Jamie, not sure dad will be able to come along next year or not, but I will definitely send your regards. I am also excited to visit with you again in Sydney. Looking forward to next year already!

Justin

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I'm all for open discussion on the topic. The more the better - pro's and con's.

From my observation, unfortunately the only ones who are complaining that it has been done to death are the ones who have invested money in it. Not sure if it is just my perception or not but it gives the impression that they just want to sweep it under the carpet.

The fact is that there is nothing we could say that would make you change your mind. You are of the opinion and many others are of the opinion; that all the keepers that bought jags are only in it to make money! You also believe that we have zero interest in the good health of the animals in question? We love our Jags more than any of our other snakes, regardless of the fact that they might end up Stupid. We realise that these animals could stay in our collection for the next 20 years and we are ok with that! Along with another couple of hundred or so. We are fully commited to all our animals welfare over the long haul, we dont flog them off when they are worth nothing or when they get too old to breed. They grow old and die in our care! After all, they offered us their life for our pleasure.

I find that the people who make the loudest noise are usually the ones that have never owned anything rare or valuable in their lives. They can not seem to grasp the concept of an investment and never will. They could also never make any contribution to the hobby as that would mean that they would have to actually respect somebody elses opinion and step out of their comfort zone. They can also never grow as a keeper as all they have to offer is their big fat opinion. Everybody else is wrong according to them!!

How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on.

As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!! They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money.

Designer snakes will also cause a decline in poaching of wild stock as they frankly look better than anything you could collect out of the bush.

Sorry for the rant and rave, this topic of breeders being in it for the money has just become laughable!!!

 

[Gusbus]

very interesting stuff, good to see a real indepth thread on here

 

[vinny86]

Couldnt agree more cp.com.au!!!!!!

 

[giggle]

Giggle, I hadn't thought of that aspect, that the neuro issue could be a source of stress. Not sure if they register that or not, but it is definitely an interesting thought.

I haven't witnessed any jag sibs with neuro issues. I would be interested to see the youtube link for that one.

Jamie, not sure dad will be able to come along next year or not, but I will definitely send your regards. I am also excited to visit with you again in Sydney. Looking forward to next year already!

Justin

I figured for those interested, it might be a way to "breed out the symptoms" and have jags that live a more normal life. By selecting for those that cope best with their neurological issues. I may be entirely wrong as I am merely an outsider looking in.

[video=youtube;DyPRAMoXC64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyPRAMoXC64[/video] found it through a UK forum where the owner said the animal had neuro issues. It doesnt say much on the youtube vid itself. I dont think I am allowed to link the other forum though?

 

[Allan]

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is the current price for Jag hatchies?

 

[Gusbus]

$2500-3000 ish

 

[cement]

Carpet pythons.com quote"How can you say that the neuro issues are being swept under the carpet when there has only been two confirmed cases that i know of personally? Yet it is out in the open now? We thought hard and long before we purchased our first animals as we paid lots more for them than what they are worth now. We also know that by the time we produce them they would probably be woth $500 each. We also realise that the siblings will become an issue, not because of our breeding, but because of some private keepers that can not understand the concept of not breeding everything that they lay their hands on.

As i have said in another post. There is no reason to refund anything when your customers have been made aware of the complications associated with the Jaguar gene!!! Its as simple as that!!! They are the perfect pet snakes, they will be picked off in the wild as they would stress themselves to death. Predators would pick them off easily as their colours would make them stand out like dogs balls in the bush. They also have less of a chance to escape as they are valuable and people tend to look after things better if they cost them a bit of money."

This is the sort of crap that breeders of jags will put up to shut up anyone who has a different opinion. I am glad the neuro problems are now out in the open and as stated earlier it would be laughable if it wasn't so disturbing.
I have heard jag breeders throw around the term "hybrid vigour", amongst other complete bull.
Have you actually had evidence of jags not surviving in the wild or are you assuming?

And how can you talk about "not in it for the money" then in the same breath talk about investment snakes?

All anyone needs to know about jags is that if you want retarded snakes buy one

Tell us all, when yours start backflipping and they will eventually if you breed enough, what will be going through your mind? honestly, because it makes me feel a little sick.