What happens when a WOMA and a BALL python get intimate, you get a WALL

[Retic]

He was actually Austrian but the Germans seemed to like him ;-)

 

[PhilK]

He was actually Austrian but the Germans seemed to like him ;-)

Dammit, I was hoping nobody would pick me up on that!!!

 

[TrueBlue]

zoltag, imo why there is no room for hybrids in the hobby is quite simple really, many many crossed snakes will look like and will be passed off as pure stock. No matter how many times people say, "oh but its ok if they tell everyone what they are", rubbish, it just dosnt happen that whay and anybody who thinks this will be the case is not only naive but has rocks in their head, because it will and does happen. Simple as that.
It will end up putting pure animals in question, hell it already has on this site many times.
I recon we should have an open season on deliberate hybrid breeders for 2 weeks a year,(much like duck hunting season), so we can weed the trash out of the hobby before its to late. hahaha.

 

[Nake]

Hey Guys,
I just wanna know WHY you all think hybridising is wrong. You all say it's wrong but don't give a reason. I guess the only thing is if they escape and reproduce with wild populations? Generally if two species can mate and produce viable offspring, it shows how closely related the two species are in evolutionary speak. If the animals can do it in captivity and are able to have contact in the wild, chances are they're doing it there too... I think that the pure animals are striking enough to lure the 'local idiot' to buy one for shock value and that breeding hybrids will not change that. With the dog analogy, purebreeds are prone to certain breed dispositions (problems or diseases) and lineage is checked to show that the puppy bred is less likely to show these dispositions. Crossbreeds in dogs are considered to be 'mongrels' as such however a crossbreed or mixedbreed dog is more likely to live longer and live healthier than purebreeds..

 

[Josh]

I've seen 'the wall' in person. Not much for hybrids myself, but the cross was done both out of curiosity, and to possibly gain new understanding of the relationship between Aspidites and Python. Neat looking snakes for sure.
Cheers from the tundra!

 

[Zoltag]

TrueBlue - Thats a fair point...

I'm thinking though that reputable breeders are unlikely to pass off anything as being other than it is, its more the "backyard" breeders that would try to pull a swifty and the way the industry is at the moment, there are no controls nor checks in place to prevent this type of practice from occurring (at least not that I know of)...

What I'm trying to say is that the way things are currently, it is not possible for someone new to keeping herps to be able to tell when a breeder is misrepresenting the animal they are selling. (From what I know, I dont think that experienced keepers are always able to tell, either).

There are ways around this, for instance does a formal national breeders association exist, with membership, rules and guidelines?

If so, then it needs to be advertised a lot more, with an emphasis on purchasing animals only from members of such an organisation (but for it to work properly, there needs to be room for all types of breeders, breeding all types of reptiles).

On top of that, the government needs to wake up and let pet stores start selling herps in NSW (and any other states that dont allow pet stores to sell them), which will provide another layer of protection against animals being misrepresented when being sold.

Finally, is there a certification system for pure-bred animals? - This is the sort of thing that will push the price of a pure-bred up somewhat, however it is also a (necessary, IMO) safeguard against having a hybrid passed off as pure, as anyone who is concerned about keeping their lines pure, or only owning pure-bred animals can demand the animal be certified, or to see the parents certifications.

 

[Australis]

Zoltag,

Its not so much the "Backyard" breeder pulling a swifty, even if every single breeder of these mutts sold them honestly, the buyers often selling them on as something they are not.

Ive noticed recently on this site a few people who have purchased known mongrels/mutts/hybrids what ever you wish to label them, refering to them as something else. Within days of owning these hybrids they are posting photos on threads of what they now call "Coastals" when they are infact hybrids.

One change of hands and a few days is all its seems to take for a known hybrid to become a "Coastal", pretty dodgey.

 

[junglepython2]

On top of that, the government needs to wake up and let pet stores start selling herps in NSW (and any other states that dont allow pet stores to sell them), which will provide another layer of protection against animals being misrepresented when being sold.

quote]

How do pet stores selling herps offer any form of protection??? Half of the ones in melb wouldn't know the difference between Jungle and a Coastal let alone a Coastal X and a pure Coastal.

 

[Retic]

Zoltag, no amount of rules and regulations would stop it. There is no national breeders association and never likely to be one given the fragmented nature of our hobby.
Pet shops selling reptiles wont do anything to stop or control it, what if they are sold hybrids without being told they are ?
A certification system has been mentioned before but of course couldn't work as the buying public only has the word of the breeder that their breeding stock is pure and unless they collected all the animals from the wild themselves even they can't possibly know.
Who would issue the certificates and how would they know what they were looking at was pure ? What if they certified just one 'pure' animal that later turned out to be something else ?

TrueBlue - Thats a fair point...

I'm thinking though that reputable breeders are unlikely to pass off anything as being other than it is, its more the "backyard" breeders that would try to pull a swifty and the way the industry is at the moment, there are no controls nor checks in place to prevent this type of practice from occurring (at least not that I know of)...

What I'm trying to say is that the way things are currently, it is not possible for someone new to keeping herps to be able to tell when a breeder is misrepresenting the animal they are selling. (From what I know, I dont think that experienced keepers are always able to tell, either).

There are ways around this, for instance does a formal national breeders association exist, with membership, rules and guidelines?

If so, then it needs to be advertised a lot more, with an emphasis on purchasing animals only from members of such an organisation (but for it to work properly, there needs to be room for all types of breeders, breeding all types of reptiles).

On top of that, the government needs to wake up and let pet stores start selling herps in NSW (and any other states that dont allow pet stores to sell them), which will provide another layer of protection against animals being misrepresented when being sold.

Finally, is there a certification system for pure-bred animals? - This is the sort of thing that will push the price of a pure-bred up somewhat, however it is also a (necessary, IMO) safeguard against having a hybrid passed off as pure, as anyone who is concerned about keeping their lines pure, or only owning pure-bred animals can demand the animal be certified, or to see the parents certifications.

 

[gold&black...]

One thing I know for sure, all of us here love snakes and not everyone is into locality specific animals... There r people who want snakes and even more snakes which are unique........ There is always gona b a market for locality specific animals and also a market for designer animals which r different..... Don't know if u will believe me but in the US, 99% of the jungles have been crossed with either diamonds or Jag's..... They might pay top $$$ for locality specific animals(because of scarcity) but here in AU, there are just too many breeders who breed pure animals and soon people are gona try breeding something different and it's happening.... Think abt it, how many of us in Au will pay top $$ for a jag.... If that line originated from one animal then how is it that u can get a jag in most carpet forms..... IMO there will b those purists and those who like morphs or hybrids... Both markets exist already and top $$$ r being paid to good animals as long as they are healthy and can breed cos when it's a hybrid animal, they usually are sterile (eg. the mule, a donkey and horse hybrid). Well, that’s just my opinion…. Cheers

G/B………

 

[gold&black...]

oh by the way, those of u who might b wondering how I came up with that figure on Jungles in the US, I got it from a very reliable breeder from there and he happens to have written a book abt Australian pythons which most of us respect and most of u who know me know who I am talking abt..... cheers

G/B.......

 

[obee]

I have tried to understand but can't get my head around this.That thing is absolute rubbish!Not to defend this practise in any way but linebred pure animals are all designer snakes.They may be of pure lines but a 7th generation palmerston jungle can look very different to its wild evolution moulded counterpart.We chose the breedings for desired traits.Natural goes straight out the door.This goes for any captive animal.Having a zoo history I've seen it with many species.A zoo bred macropod eg Agile wallaby buck after generations doesn't even look the same as a wild breeding male and infact if it could even survive in the wild would stand no chance of reproducing.Morphs are perhaps of pure lineage but really have no bearing whatsoever on wild populations.Thats why they rarely occur in the wild.I guess nature takes care of this rubbish its us that enhance it.I think ppl get confused about species and breeds.As Rob already stated for eg all carpets are the same species containing various subspecies.A purebred dog is exactly the same species as a crossbreed.Infact many breeds are the result of crossing different breeds.Always an interesting discussion topic.I will forever be a so called purist and physically feel ill when I see crap like this.However my jungles are what I think is nice to look at and nothing like what nature intented them to look like generally.To have a registerd line of animals would be desirable but very difficult.They would have to fall within a set standard as all dog breeds do and many registrations of dog breeds began.Variation within species of a locale can be quite extensive.Some non-pure animals may fit within a standard so problems could occur right from the getgo.Just my thoughts.

Cheers Obee.

 

[jay76]

I have no problem with people breeding hybrids, I wouldnt do it but some of them are bloody nice, as long as the people selling them say that they are crosses not pure

 

[gold&black...]

cant agree enough with u obee and Jarrod......

 

[PhilK]

I reckon knowledge is key. Breed as many hybrids as you want, but make sure EVERYONE KNOWS they're hybrids and DON'T sell them as a coastal morph or whatever happens. If that happens, I've got no issues with hybridisation

 

[PilbaraPythons]

In my opinion a 7th generation jungle bred from jungles found from the same area would look like just like you would expect to find in the wild from that area. I challenge any body to show me a jungle in captivity that has been line bred to a point that you would not find an example similar in the wild if you looked hard enough. I have yet to see a single specimen that looked unnatural besides hybrids. To simplify it (and this is a very crude analogy) you can only create so many different colours with only two paints. In any given area of habitat and in our case captivity there is a given gene pool and therefore theoretically speaking a set limitation of traits be it pattern or other wise to be enhanced or expressed. We could never live long enough to ever see them all but it could not be infinite. Unlike our set limitations we have with the captive reptiles we own, in the wild gene flow will be more diverse and of course, evolution plays an eventual hand e.g changing the paint pigment.
Bring into captivity jungles, from different area, distance extremes and you basically start adding other colours of paint (Yes I know it a crude analogy) with more possibility of enhancing traits that perhaps you might not see in either area naturally.

 

[gold&black...]

Hard enough........ that the catch.... Show me a wild caught SUPER STRIPE jungle......... cheers

G/B..........

 

[Rennie]

Hard enough........ that the catch.... Show me a wild caught SUPER STRIPE jungle......... cheers

G/B..........

The genes are there, they may not be common but they could pop up naturally, in the wild every now and then.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Not sure what you mean by super striped jungles ? but I have seen striped jungles in the wild as would have many others.

Cheers Dave

 

[gold&black...]

Can’t argue with that.......... By the way Dave that read u had on Truebluereptiles explaining jungles was fantastic..... Don’t think anyone explained jungles as well as that......