Wild Caught debate

[PilbaraPythons]

I was fascinated to read in the latest Australian reptile magazine the comments made by Simon Stone ( Doc Rock ) about wild caught snakes from W.A. He claims and I quote,

Snakes with sort of back ground, or that are only first generation captive bred animals can be much more touchy and difficult to care for and breed than multigenerational captive bred animals. It worth bearing in mind that the shorter the captive history of a breeding line typically the more difficult it is to breed and the more sensitive to human intervention.

The puzzling part about this statement is how he arrives at these conclusions without having bred or kept many ( or perhaps any?) first generation or multigenerational wild derived W.A woma’s, Black headed Pythons, South Western carpets, or Stimsons in the first place to gain accurate data to draw some of these ridicules conclusions.
In regards to one particular species e.g. wild caught W.A womas, my experience has shown me the complete opposite. Without trying to blow my own trumpet too much here, I have no doubt that we here at Pilbara Pythons have caught, housed and handled more wild caught W.A Pilbara womas than any white man on this planet. Furthermore my breeding partner Rob McCloud in QLD has in a Twelve month period produced large numbers of clutches from wild caught females that we deemed were of appropriate condition and age with absolute ease. In fact only two females failed to produce in their first year of captivity. To claim that first generation captive bred have a less desirable temperament that multi generation off spring is in my view (and of many other experienced breeders) is wrong and unproven.
A snake has only basic instincts and mother snakes generally do not nurture their young or teach them in any way. How does a snake know the difference itself between whether it was captive bred or wild bred?
A primary survival instinct in any animal is to reproduce, snakes don’t get heightened senses of this because they are captive bred, it is primal.

It therefore raises the question of motivation of publishing such unsubstantiated conclusions. Could the motivation be in the fact that so many beautiful good temperament wild caught woma specimens are now established in captivity which directly threatens potential sales of ones own breeding pool programs of the same species?
Where there is no argument from me however ( and I actually agree ), is that generally speaking wild caught can be more difficult to breed straight from the wild than captive raised. This is more evident with a few species but definitely not for all.
My self and many others across this great country have shown that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment. That in its self can be for the very inexperienced perhaps harder to achieve.
The following is a very quick summary of how I view the debate. Please feel free to ad to the lists. Now you may ask your self the same question? What is my motivation for this response? Simply put, an article like that directly affects all W.A reptile dealers financially who deal in wild caught fauna.


Wild Caught Collected Pythons
Many people believe that wild caught snakes are harder to breed than captive born.
While this can be true with individual specimens my experience has shown me that all wild caught species of pythons can indeed be bred successfully in captivity if maintained correctly and specimens have appropriately adapted to their captive environment.

What are the negatives?
(1) Possibly ending up with a specimen of unknown age
(2) Having a specimen not used to captivity
(3)Ending up with a reptiles that does not do well in captivity

Why do some people prefer captive bred specimens?
(1) Often a chance to see both parent reptiles
(2) Starting fresh with a disease free specimen
(3) Having a good chance of eventually breeding from specimen
(4) Because of personal morals against the collecting of wild reptiles
for potential commercial gain or otherwise.

How can I increase my chances of breeding a wild caught python?
(1) Try to get younger specimen to gain the maximum breeding time
(2) Try to only buy from of a reputable dealer
(3) Make sure that the reptile your purchase has had some captive history
and this information its history is supplied from the supplier
(4) Only purchase reptiles that have been treated for internal parasites
(5) Only purchase reptiles that are guaranteed feeding well.

What are some of the positives?
(1) Knowing you have a locale specific specimen and where it came from
(2) Having the mystery of not knowing for sure what genes its may carry e.g.
exciting traits you may end up with.
(3) Knowing that you have a pure species and not tainted by unscrupulous breeders.
(4) A chance to get un related blood lines in to captive breeding programs.


Cheers

Dave Mackintosh

 

[bredli84]

just for arguments sake i will mention that simon stone has bred at least some wild caught specimens (gammon ranges carpets, albino darwin), while they are not WA animals the principles should be the same.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

And was successful in breeding both, surprise surprise.

 

[salebrosus]

Well said Dave, I certainly have a preference for wild animals for the reasons you have mentioned.

Simone.

 

[mrmikk]

Let me throw another angle on this debate.

While not knowing the intracacies of WA legislation regarding the 'rules' around catching, keeping and breeding wild caught reptiles. I would not like to see any tom, dick or harry have permission to take wild reptiles into captivity for obvious reasons.

Wild caught under very strict controls, perhaps, but I think captive bred reptiles, on the whole will maintain supply to our market and thereby leave wild reptiles to enjoy their native habitat.

While not taking side in this debate, I am sure you do indeed have extensive experience in your field Pilbara. However, most will agree that Simon Stone is one of this country's foremost experts on Australian snakes, and I am positive you would concede that his opinion does carry weight.

I also feel that you should have given Simon the opportunity to respond to your concerns in a private manner, rather than posting in a public forum.

Pilbara, perhaps you can shed some light on what your legislative obligations are around being able to take wild caught reptiles.

 

[Retic]

I think most people prefer captive bred and ideally multi generation captive bred, they almost invariably are better adjusted in captivity and less likely to suffer from parasite issues. Having said that I would own good quality WC animals.
I think Simon is probably totally justified in making those comments, regardless of whether he personally has bred WC WA animals he no doubt knows numerous keepers that own these animals and would be well aware of any potential issues associated with them.
Not surprisingly he no longer posts on here which is a shame as it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the subject.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

mrMikk
Quote
I also feel that you should have given Simon the opportunity to respond to your concerns in a private manner, rather than posting in a public forum.

Posting in a private capacity would not achieve my objective which was simply putting things in prospective and stating that some of what was written by Doc Rock is biased. It wasn’t a question of needing to ask him anything.

Quote
While not taking side in this debate, I am sure you do indeed have extensive experience in your field Pilbara. However, most will agree that Simon Stone is one of this country's foremost experts on Australian snakes, and I am positive you would concede that his opinion does carry weight.

There is no argument from me that Simon has extensive experience in breeding and maintaining some species of pythons. If you concede that his opinion carries weight, then this makes it even more important to the inexperienced punters out there that what he says is based on fact and not just on generalized personal opinion derived from very little experience.

Quote
Pilbara, perhaps you can shed some light on what your legislative obligations are around being able to take wild caught reptiles.

The legislative obligations are long and many, but briefly,
All collecting activity here is done with strict licence conditions than entail the collection of GPS points of capture, weights and measurements and condition of each collected reptiles etc.
We have to provide 48 written prior collection notice of vehicle, property location.
We have to quarantine captives for three weeks and treat accordingly for internal and external parasites, supply written notice of reptile transfer, complete records and of course pay large fees of which every body hates.

_________________

 

[Ramsayi]

The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?

 

[bredli84]

The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?

probably a long time since they are so hard to keep and breed

 

[mrmikk]

Thanks for your response Pilbara and the rules governing wild caught reptiles in WA

 

[salebrosus]

The only thing about WC that interests me is how long it will continue to happen.When are enough specimens going to be collected to be able to supply the market with captive bred animals?

Sadly there are some species that are not in captivity but i wish they were. Those Pilbara egernias are simply stunning.

Simone.

 

[weskys]

just wondering how many wild caught reptiles there are in regards to reptiles released into wild dont wish to get into strong debate more asking so i know more on the subject for my own benifit just wondering if numbers are equal and if not i support captivly bred reptiles for commercial sale

as said dont wish aggresive debate but am just curious on the balance
cheers dave

 

[whatsup]

this hobby originated by people collecting wild caught animals to breed with from all over Australia. people are still getting collection permits to collect certain species to start breeding programs.

 

[lazybuddha]

i hope to get some wild caught soon, for points 1, 3 and 4.

 

[junglepython2]

just wondering how many wild caught reptiles there are in regards to reptiles released into wild dont wish to get into strong debate more asking so i know more on the subject for my own benifit just wondering if numbers are equal and if not i support captivly bred reptiles for commercial sale

as said dont wish aggresive debate but am just curious on the balance
cheers dave

I think you will find there are 0 captive snakes released into the wild legally, for various different reasons and if they were it would only be under very special circumstances.

 

[salebrosus]

Wasn't there a program releasing South Australian womas?

Simone.

 

[whatsup]

yeah there was. i read somewhere it did'nt go that well

 

[Den from Den Pythons]

Why do some people prefer captive bred specimens?
(1) Often a chance to see both parent reptiles
(2) Starting fresh with a disease free specimen
(3) Having a good chance of eventually breeding from specimen
(4) Because of personal morals against the collecting of wild reptiles
for potential commercial gain or otherwise.

Cheers

Dave Mackintosh

The sad thing is that these days sometimes its 'safer' to buy in a WC animal than a captive bred animal from a disease standpoint! (excluding breeders and keepers that adhere to strict quarantine practices)!

As for the breeding of wild caught animals, I can only comment on what experience i have had personally. I have dealt with a few WC animals that were in the care of NSW keepers around amnesty time. The most troublesome WC species found to breed were Stimsons and BHP's. In my experience these two species are much easier to breed if the animals you purchase are from multi-gen stock. In saying that, Obviously there are a limited number of people breeding WA BHP's (compared to QLD's) so the chances of finding multi-gen Quality animals are fairly low. In this case I think buying WC WA Blackheads (and stimsons) is a great way to "test your skills" and inturn supply others keepers with CB animals down the line.

Regards
Den

 

[Miss_Croft]

Wild Caught V’s Captive Bred

I am going to keep this general (not based on Australian Pythons, but on US experience where you can buy Wild caught reptiles (Cheaper than captive bred) and captive bred ones. This is the same for birds and other wild animals (Tigers included – just look how hard it is to breed Sumatran Tigers compared to white Bangor tiger.

• Captive Breed reptiles tend to be easier to incubate their eggs

Breeders have found

• • A much higher incubation success with captive bred reptiles (Second generation is better than first and it goes on)
  • A more regular breeding cycle (many breeders say like clock work or can predict when their animals should start laying)
• The animals are much easier to handle

·Breeders tend to breed the quieter animals – this creates an animal with a better temperament and is easier to handle.

• Parasite load

·Keepers have round the parasite load of imported reptiles is often high – they say the reptile crashes about 4-6 months into keeping them. It is often called wasting disease (Tortoise are prone to this). What they find is the poor animal is now under stress and is killed by the parasite load

• Temperature tolerance

·They find captive bred animal often have a wider temperature tolerance (As well as a wider humidity tolerance).

• Transport tolerance

·This is an interesting one – but captive bred animals generally survive transport better than wild caught animals – This has other implications for where smuggled animals come from – but that is a whole new topic that I do not want to get into now. (Basically if you want the animals to arrive safely at their destination – go for captive bred animals and you have a greater chance of live delivery)

What I am trying to say is most breeders will keep the “Best” for breeding and sell off the rest. (The best been the largest, best looking and healthiest animals (Aka easier to keep and breed) Call it evolution, selective breeding or what ever you want… Captive bred animals are generally quieter, easier to keep, breed and live longer in captivity.

 

[Just_Joshin]

Personally i think it is sad and wrong that people are allowed to take Snakes out of the wild and sell them. I fully support permits that allow the collection of initial breeding stock, but in my opinion, it should stay just that, INITIAL.

The ongoing practice of catching specimens to sell is wrong. It is simply legalised poaching which is disgusting. Once breeding pairs of snakes have been obtained onus should be placed upon the collector to breed these animals ONLY and use the ongoing off-spring to produce the captive population of a particular. Selling these wild caughts specimens only to obtain more to sell is ridiculous.

That is all.......