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Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).

I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.
 
Miss Croft
I can’t comment too much about the hundreds of different exotic reptiles available in the US taken from the wild which of many I know absolutely nothing about.

I can comment about many Australian species though through good first hand experience gained over several years. I have yet to find the incubation of python eggs any more or less successful than eggs produced from captive bred first generation specimens.
I have also yet to experience any temperament differences in regards to wild caught hatchlings over captive bred specimens and dealt with decent numbers of both.

As far as captive bred living longer goes, I refute that as well as this is completely relevant to the age of the wild caught reptile as well as its health status when you purchase it in the first place.
e.g. if I collect a hatchling straight from the nest I seriously doubt that it has a shorter life span than if I had artificially incubated the egg my self or produced the egg from a captive raised specimen, lets get real here.

Cheers Dave
 
Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).

I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.
Why take from a population in which in reality, we have no control over the rate of reproduction, is stressed upon by unknown and changing environmental factors and we really don't have a ACCURATE idea of what is left. If a sudden change in climate, fire rips through and area, a disease pops up.........suddenly you may be thinking, "gee all those snakes we allowed to be taken would definately be of a help back in the wild now". I see no need to risk a wild population when there are other means. It is a privelge to even be able to keep them in the first place. Why exploit this privledge by continuing to take what really shouldn't be ours to begin with.

Why do this when it can all be controlled and regulating within a self sustainable captive population???
 
dave, i don't think you read the quote correctly, " can be " doesn't read 'definitely are in all circumstances' as it appears you are reading it.
 
I have no problems with founder specimens being wild caught to establish captive breeding lines, after all we have all benefited from this. However i cannot simply see why animals continue to be caught and sold to any Tom, Dick or Harry in the industry.

Granted your experience is far greater than mine, but you elude to the fact that both yourself and Rob have been successful in breeding large numbers from wild caught animals (in the case of womas). So then why do you continue to plunder the wilderness for additional specimens. I regularly see animals on your website that don't appear to be anything overly unique from what you now have available that has been bred in captivity.

In regards to Simon's comments, maybe he was generalising, and as you have agreed with, a lot of wild caught animals are difficult to breed in captivity.

I will agree with Den that maybe some herpers would find breeding these wild caught animals a challenging experience, and i don't disagree that certain people with considerable experience be given the opportunity to work with these animals. But i see them generally available to any novice who applies for a license.

I see this as an unecessary practice and i can only imagine your underlying motive here is to bolster your business interests.

No malice intended, it is just my opinion!
 
Apart from CB animals being brought up and adjusted to captivity from hatching I fail to see any advantages of CB over wild caught (provided they are colected in a fashion that is not detrimental to the population).

I personally think its a shame there isnt more regulated collecting allowed across Australia.
I bought this WC v CB topic up last year as a total newbie and it wasn't received real well. I am still a newbie, but can't understand how any native animal can be removed from a constantly diminishing habitat without it being "detrimental to the population".
 
I bought this WC v CB topic up last year as a total newbie and it wasn't received real well. I am still a newbie, but can't understand how any native animal can be removed from a constantly diminishing habitat without it being "detrimental to the population".

Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and Litoria fallax even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...
 
Question, as I have no experience in the area, but why is it so difficult to establish a captive breeding program to release snakes back into the wild?
 
Question, as I have no experience in the area, but why is it so difficult to establish a captive breeding program to release snakes back into the wild?

A range of factors -
possibility of disease transfer
questionable genetic integrity of CB stock
releasing animals can be detrimental to the ecosytem if not done correctly(even native species)
other reasons too
 
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"and of course pay large fees of which every body hates"

This is why the departments continue to allow it, cause they're making money out of it.
 
Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and Litoria fallax even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...

That maybe be the case, but if you were then to continually harvest garden skinks and frogs and sell them 50 at a time to petshops this surely would have an impact on your garden!
 
That maybe be the case, but if you were then to continually harvest garden skinks and frogs and sell them 50 at a time to petshops this surely would have an impact on your garden!

Im not saying ppl should be able to collect garden skinks in destructive numbers, its just that i dont see any harm in regulated collection of herps in a way that doesn't have a negative impact on the population. I dont know much about how wild herps are allowed to be collected in Australia, but if it is damaging populations it should definitely be stopped and the collectors reponsible should be held accountable and punished. If collection permits are handed out to random idiots this should also be stopped.
 
Im not saying ppl should be able to collect garden skinks in destructive numbers, its just that i dont see any harm in regulated collection of herps in a way that doesn't have a negative impact on the population. I dont know much about how wild herps are allowed to be collected in Australia, but if it is damaging populations it should definitely be stopped and the collectors reponsible should be held accountable and punished. If collection permits are handed out to random idiots this should also be stopped.

So what would be the purpose of continually harvesting from the wild given the fact, according to someone who collects,that they breed in captivity as easily as CB animals?

More than enough of the animals on the takers lists have ended up in collections already to establish decent CB numbers so there is absolutely no need to keep taking other than the fact of making money.
 
in my opinion it shnould be illegal to take any animals out of the wild for many resons we are destroying future generations and if the rest of australia can manage with capitive bred animals they should stay in the wild on top of that you could be bringing parasites into captive situations
 
hazzard
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Granted your experience is far greater than mine, but you elude to the fact that both yourself and Rob have been successful in breeding large numbers from wild caught animals (in the case of womas). So then why do you continue to plunder the wilderness for additional specimens? I regularly see animals on your website that don't appear to be anything overly unique from what you now have available that has been bred in captivity.

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Well since your whole paragraph seems to be referring to woma’s?, then let’s discuss this. For your information I have no longer an immediate need to collect woma’s or black-headed pythons any more for our personal breeding programs and therefore seldom do so. Secondly you claim to regularly see animals on the website and yet the same woma’s have been advertised for the last twelve months are nearly all captive bred which seems somewhat irrelevant to this debate. It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state. I will not pretend that there won’t be at times additional woma specimens harvested when required for our selves in the future or to supply to someone else who perhaps prefers a wild caught specimen over a captive bred, which by the way is often the case. While the D.E.H scientists believe that the species taken currently will not be detrimental to the sustainability of their existence in the wild, I morally have no problems with it.

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In regards to Simon's comments, maybe he was generalizing, and as you have agreed with, a lot of wild caught animals are difficult to breed in captivity.

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Generalizing or not, his statement was a warning against obtaining W.A wild caught reptiles without telling the full story and I stand by what I said in my first post.

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I will agree with Den that maybe some herpers would find breeding these wild caught animals a challenging experience, and i don't disagree that certain people with considerable experience be given the opportunity to work with these animals. But i see them generally available to any novice who applies for a license.

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Even a novice should have no difficulty with any reptile we supply as our reptiles don’t get sold to any one unless they are doing well in captivity in the first place.

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I see this as an unnecessary practice and i can only imagine your underlying motive here is to bolster your business interests.

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Of course one of our motives is to make money, that fact has never been hidden.
I won’t however compromise the truth to paint a picture that suits my a gender though, this I can promise you.

Cheers Dave
 
I love these debates you really get to see the hypocracy of eastern states herpers - if its so morally wrong to take from the wild none of you should be keeping herps now on principal, your animals all orginated from WC stock.

Some of the excuses for not keeping/breeding WC are laughable. WA has some of the best looking animals on off in the country and its possbily got something to do with the fact that the animals aren't all inbred and geographically hybridised.

Possibly the only issue is over harvest and it appears that may have happend in a number of areas, but in reality this appears to have been undertaken by illegal harvesting not licensed takers - which is going to happen anywhere.
 
Im fairly sure most times i mow the lawn i would probably kill a few garden skinks and Litoria fallax even though unlike probably 99.99% of ppl i actually slow up for them(taking me about 10times longer to mow the lawn lol). Even though over the years i may have killed a number of these herps they still seem to be hanging in there by some remarkable fluke and garden skinks havnt become endangered yet. Garden skinks are however one of the rarest species legallly held in Australian collections...
LOL! Is that your rationale for suggesting we allow snakes to be taken from the wild!:D Can I respectfully suggest we may need something more rigorous as an environmental impact study?
 
Dont get worked up too much Pilbara, he is well known for making comments REMOVED Unfriendly attack on other member. And I will probably get into trouble for saying this.
i have dealt with many wild imports while i was living in my country of origin. And also dealt with many local wild caught animals. I never had problems with any, if you allow them to have a settling down period and treat them for parasites. Its true when you say they are governed by basic instinct. I do however think that some people want them to start behaving like a captive bred animal immediately and this is where the problem starts. Most of the more experienced keepers i know hardly ever handle their snakes except when it comes to cleaning time, i have some snakes that you would think are wild caught but they are not. Just form this lack of treating it like a pet. And these wild demons are some of my better breeders. Also with the big hype in locality animals, this would be a good way of acquiring and developing your own line of animal. Data is available of where it was collected and can be proven when selling the offspring to prospective buyers. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
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