Wild Caught debate

[caustichumor]

I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..

 

[sengir]

I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..

I think thats a great idea, but sadly can only ever be so in theory. Who then decides who is an experienced breeder, with such a large range of different and extenuating circumstances, it would be hard to have a criteria to control this that was effective JMO, but like I said good idea.

 

[salebrosus]

As i said i would love to see those egernia pilbarensis in captivity.

Simone.

 

[zulu]

re Wild

Where did the georgetown stimsons come from,could they have been from a virgin birth in captivity ! :lol: They all come from the scrub at one time or another,in WA the department has to learn how to move on from one species to another,like stop the collection of womas and BHps and stimys and move on to others such as perthensis etc to keep buyers and takers incomes stable IMO.

 

[Miss_Croft]

David – In my last post I was giving what I have read about wild caught V’s Captive bred animals. I did not give my opinion on “harvesting” animals from the wild.

My personal opinion is as follows: Most – if not all Australian animals should have no restrictions on keeping (Other than local council registration) – that is scrap licensing of native animals. Most of the Australian natives live will in captivity – make better pets than cats (Some have issues like the platypus).

I am not sure about you – but I want the best for my pets – and would not like to see my pet die for any reason – I make sure my pet does not have parasites; I make sure my pet has adequate heat, water, food and housing. Most people are the same.

The bottom line is people collecting (outside national parks) have a minimal impact on wild population compared to other activities (Like driving a car, keeping of cats and dogs as pets, feral animals). How many animals can be caught for the domestic pet trade? How many snakes can you catch out side a national park a day (10, 20, 100)? The answer is not many.

As for those who say – wild animals should be left in the wild. I will say this – the Fisheries and Wild life guys down under through their miss management often burn out their parks killing most of the animals in its path. This is a greater threat than a few people collecting reptiles as pets.

The bottom line is keeping native animals as pets will not put pressure on their population – but will keep the miss managed species for future generations.

As for the person who said there needs to be more studies done on this. I have this question: How does counting animals keep the population help that animal? All it tells you is yes there were 100 per square mile last year and only 50 this year. What are they doing to insure the population for future generations?

 

[llasher]

There seem to be two parallel discussions here: one is comparing keeping of WC to CB and the other is the rights and wrongs of catching reptiles in the wild for pets/breeding.

I have no doubt that most of the people who catch wild reptiles do so with the appropriate permits etc. and that in the scheme of things catching wild reps has much smaller impact than habitat destruction. Nevertheless I do think we have to be careful about a mindset that says Australia is a huge country and what's a few snakes when they are caught by a caring herp with a view to propagation for a good home. My purely anecdotal experience as someone who has lived in Australia for over 45 years and seen what is happening to this country is that we need to treat our native animals with the greatest respect. and as a precious resource.

And just because i live in the suburbs of SE Australia doesn't mean I don't have a right to be concerned about loss of native fauna.

 

[whiterabbit]

I was just wondering on the differences in genetic fitness of wild caught over captive bred, and if this is a reason for some of the feeding problems people get with not only their snakes but other herps. As I see it in the wild if the animal wont eat or has something genetically wrong with it (not necessarily a physically visible trait) then it wont survive in the wild therefore will die and not be able to spread the undesirable gene. However with captive bred animals we try to get as many offspring as possible and give them the best chance at life (understandable), but what about the hatchings that don't eat and need to be force fed? would these specimens even survive in the wild? and should they be allowed to breed in captivity if we want to keep the captive population genetically fit?
Could this be a reason to bring in the wild caught animals genes to keep the captive populations genetics fit? Just wondering on any others options, as I haven't had anything to do with wild caught animals does this argument seem valid?

Cheers
WR

 

[Just_Joshin]

It has to be remembered that even if I am successful in setting up breeding programs through the good results of others that produce captive bred pythons out side of W.A, I can not import them back into this state meaning that there is still a shortage in some cases of available captive bred snakes for the growing numbers of new licensee’s within this state.

That is where your arguement becomes weak. Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? I understand things are made difficuly due to the growing popularity of herptoculture across our country and the strict laws that WA have in place. However, this sadly is something that WAers should have to live with until such time that large enough captive specimens bred within WA are available or the current laws are changed. Contiuing to take from the wild to stock local herpers because you CHOOSE to send your captive breeding programmes interstate, therefore making the off-sping unavailable to people within your own state, i feel is wrong and it highlights my earlier arguements about WC harvesting.

 

[Den from Den Pythons]

I'm much fonder of CB animals than WC but I see no problem with a certain amount of animals being 'taken' from the wild to establish a good population in captivity (as long as key areas aren't 'raped' for decades). If Dave and others have made a few bucks by taking such animals legally then good for them. They get a few bucks, we get access to locale specific stock.

Den

 

[cris]

I don't mind the taking of wild caught, as long as it is done in a sustainable way. I think WC animals should only be available to experienced breeders to expand the bloodlines and gene-pool of the captive population..

I agree, but it not only allows new bloodlines but new species, locality types and morphs to be collected aswell.

 

[Just_Joshin]

I love these debates you really get to see the hypocracy of eastern states herpers - if its so morally wrong to take from the wild none of you should be keeping herps now on principal, your animals all orginated from WC stock.

Your helping us make our point with this statement. Yes our animals ORIGINATED from WC stock but that is it. Almost all stock from the eastern stated are now CB so that we don't have to keep harvesting. This ofcourse has the exception of a few new species or morphs that pop up.

This is why many of "hypocritical" easterns have pointed out the fact that every herper is PRIVILEDGED to be able to own herpers. Therefore that priviledge should be respected by setting up appropriate breeding programmes with founder specimens only. Continuing to take them because people "prefer them" or "need them" because those with the legal permits choose to make the CB stock unavailable to their state is what is so ridiculous.

WA has some of the best looking animals on off in the country and its possbily got something to do with the fact that the animals aren't all inbred and geographically hybridised.

I agree with you when you say WA has some of the best looking herps around, that fact is undisputed. However, stating that our animals are all geographically hybridised because we can't obtain WC specimens is ridiculous. What is to stop people is WA attempting to hybridise specimens obtained within WA. Hybridised is a persons own moral choice, not a by-product of not having WC stock available.

The same goes for the inbred comment. If people where to appropriately maintain there collection, no inbreeding would occur. However, people choose to inbred snakes as it is easier to expand your breeding output by supplying yourself and not having to purchase snakes from other. I don't support this but it is the case. The exact same thing will happen with in WA as collections of CB begin to grow with in the state.

It should be duely noted also, that inbreeding with in snakes does not have the negative genetic consequences that it does within other types of animal. If they were to be inbred, generation upon generation upon generation then issues may arise. However, once breeding pairs are established, these will be kept for years and years with out the need to continue inbreeding

 

[PilbaraPythons]

womanator
Your Quote
That is where your arguement becomes weak.
Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? I understand things are made difficuly due to the growing popularity of herptoculture across our country and the strict laws that WA have in place. However, this sadly is something that WAers should have to live with until such time that large enough captive specimens bred within WA are available or the current laws are changed. Contiuing to take from the wild to stock local herpers because you CHOOSE to send your captive breeding programmes interstate, therefore making the off-sping unavailable to people within your own state, i feel is wrong and it highlights my earlier arguements about WC harvesting.

Reply
I am not arguing, I am simply answering questions by stating facts regardless of how strong or weak those answers may come across.

What makes you sure I haven’t now already set up breeding programs over here. I have, and it is going reasonably well so far. The hard economic reality is that in the past there was no, or at the best, very little demand for some species here in W.A. e.g. woma’s and Black-headed pythons. This was a direct consequence of a licensing system that made a cat 4 licence very hard to obtain and not because people didn’t desire the species. In fact currently there are still only about 150 cat 4 license holders. So most reptile dealers who specialized in cat 4 reptiles and solely relied on W.A demand first and ignored the export demand until later wouldn’t survive in the short term. Having had long winded discussions with the D.E.H about their attitude towards export, I can also tell their view, which is they do not have a problem with any reptile exports while there are not W.A keepers complaining that they can not obtain reptiles any where.

 

[salebrosus]

Should you not then set up a breeding programme or colony within your own state to begin to supply the people of WA?? .

I know of a particular individual in WA who kept and bred a large number of wellsi adders however a couple of years ago people were tearing shreds off him cos he wouldn't sell them. He was breeding them to try and get as much genetic variances happening and he refused to sell them unless they were in pairs as he felt that it served no purpose in keeping one as you couldn't breed them then hence less numbers in captivity. He was always copping grief for that.

Simone.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

And just when I thought the fire was going out.....along came Rob
Holy smoke Rob, I thought I was less than tactful

 

[Matthew Burgess]

fresh blood needed

noticed how topaz womas have gone from $2200 each to $2400 a pair in twelve months, yes i think someones sales have dropped dramatically since the introduction of WC reptiles from WA, and so the best way to increase sales is to convince people that WC are no good. and yes eventually inbreeding becomes a factor, thats why new bloodlines are vital, NT should allow the collection of uluru and tanami to create new blood lines as well.

 

[TrueBlue]

Dave only stating the facts.

In the woma issue of rep/aust,(vol 4 issue 2) he also states that wa womas tend to be darker than tannamis, this i also do not agree with, infact ive seen more light coloured womas from wa than the nt. He also states that tannamis tend to have orange bellies and wa's yellow, well that also is untrue as as both forms occour in both states just as commonly.
Very unusual comments for him to make.!?.

 

[Australis]

I catch native fauna to keep most weekends.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Its a pity that there is actually not that many people that visit these forums. I'm sure a lot of truths will surface about intentions in the near future. i

 

[zulu]

re Wild

noticed how topaz womas have gone from $2200 each to $2400 a pair in twelve months, yes i think someones sales have dropped dramatically since the introduction of WC reptiles from WA, and so the best way to increase sales is to convince people that WC are no good. and yes eventually inbreeding becomes a factor, thats why new bloodlines are vital, NT should allow the collection of uluru and tanami to create new blood lines as well.

Mathew,its just that womas have had the crap bred out of them all across the market,theres onley so much milk you can get from a cow before its stuffed,the same thing is happening with jungles,people and businesses have to move on like cows to new pastures with the fresh smell of dollar signs.

 

[Isis]

So when I breed my womas, one being wild caught when a hatchie I can ask big bucks then.....????