Get off you're high horse Australia!

[byron_moses]

but my high horse is so cute

 

[scorps]

I'm actually an Aussie snake catcher living in the one of the snake capitals of the world (the NT). Cone shells are the only thing on your list that i haven't had first hand experience with, but that's besides the point.

Come to Cairns one day Gorden ill take you scuba diving and well go play with some cone shells

 

[waruikazi]

Come to Cairns one day Gorden ill take you scuba diving and well go play with some cone shells

I'm good, i'm quite happy to never come into contact with one of them!

 

[redlittlejim]

Hey scorps, who do you dive with? or do you have your own gear?
My wife's family business is diving and collecting fish and coral on the reef!!! funny enough they love eels and sea snakes but are scared of my little coastal!!

 

[hugsta]

I think this might sum it up?

Lmao moose, say no more....

 

[cement]

but my high horse is so cute

Apparently I have one just like that.....only higher! I'm feeding it up to get higher then Gordies

 

[junglepython2]

Hell yes... And unlike most of the australian fanboys on here I have actullay posted evidence to support my claims... To say that australia has 6 of the top 10 most venomous drop for drop snakes to humans is a stretch.... Irwins claim that they have the top 10 was just absolutely retarded/wrong

What evidence? The only evidence you have posted is that humans MAY react differntly to mice which isn't rocket science. I haven't seen any real evidence that Australia doesn't have some of the most venomous snakes drop for drop. Unless there is LD50 studies done on humans, using mammal models is by far the best guide we have.

 

[cement]

And its quite obvious what the main point is of this thread... It really isnt even talking about "dangerous or deadly" and I think that you know that but you are just choosing to ignore it... The point of this thread is pretty obvious.

This thread has 10x more value and worth than a "top ten most venomous or deadly snakes thread" with 6+ of them being australian snakes.... or in Steve Irwins case all 10 of them being australian....The reason I bumped this thread was because their was some incorrect information in it and it needed to be corrected... [/QUOTE]

Digits/Limbs removed?? What... Which aussie snakes cause necrosis? I know the tiger snake can cause renal failure and maybe some brown snakes could aswell..

It may be true that australia's major species of elapid don't actually carry a necrotic toxin in their venom, but like you mention the Tiger has (rarely) caused necrosis..so go figure.. I have a friend that lost a finger to a red belly bite, it was caused by a complication after envenomation called dry gangrene. If gangrene isn't a form of necrosis then what is? And something to think about is the simple fact that if he hadn't been bitten he would still have his finger.

Also from what I understand, is that any myolitic damage has possible effects on the kidneys.




Ok, so do we all agree that the LD50 only proves snake venom toxicity effects on mice? Good that's out of the way....gee that's a surprise, and ground breaking news.

Please feel free to supply your "correct" scientific information to prove your point.
Though I for one won't be bothering to look back at this thread to check it out.

 

[moosenoose]

I'm sure Neville Burns is one such well known Australian handler/enthusiast who can vouch for a loss of digit due to a black snake bite.

 

[mmafan555]

Claims of what? I hear an awful lot of tin-rattling with very little evidence to back it up. I understand, to a degree, the point you are trying to push, but unless there is another measurement of toxicity levels available, you and your pansy snakes (who are out of the top 10) are just going to have to suck it up :lol:

First off for the 100000000 time... Australia does NOT have the top 10 most venomous snakes to humans based on those stupid mice tests... It has 6 of the top 10 based on the ld50... So if your going to be ignorant enough to give the mice tests credibility... at least accurately portray the test and dont lie about it.. And in reality its only 4 of the top 10 as 3 different sub types of tiger snakes are used...which makes it 6.. It the inland taipan, coastal taipan, eastern brown and then the 3 tiger snakes...So please if your going to use the dumb tests atleast use it accurately.

What evidence? The only evidence you have posted is that humans MAY react differntly to mice which isn't rocket science. I haven't seen any real evidence that Australia doesn't have some of the most venomous snakes drop for drop. Unless there is LD50 studies done on humans, using mammal models is by far the best guide we have.

This... and I'm going to post more direct snakebite studies tommorrow...


Here are some examples of different animals reacting differently to given toxins

1. Sydney funnel web venom causes only extremely mild signs in dogs cats mice rabbits etc but is very toxic and potentially lethal in even adult humans. The funnel web possessed a neurotoxin
Spider Envenomation, Funnel Web: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



2. Queensland Tarantula venom causes only very mild symptoms in humans, even in young children[ local pain] yet has a near 100% DEATH rate for dogs and a nearly 50 percent death rate for cats

"There were nine confirmed bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and seven in canines. These included bites by two Selenocosmia spp. and by two Phlogiellus spp. The nine spider bites in humans did not cause major effects. Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded. Puncture marks or bleeding were the next most common effect. In one case the spider had bitten through the patient's fingernail. Mild systemic effects occurred in one of nine cases. There were seven bites in dogs (Phlogellius spp. and Selenocosmia spp.), and in two of these the owner was bitten after the dog. In all seven cases the dog died, and as rapidly as 0.5-2h after the bite. This small series of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders gives an indication of the spectrum of toxicity of these spiders in humans. Bites by these spiders are unlikely to cause major problems in humans. The study also demonstrates that the venom is far more toxic to canines."

Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in hu... [Toxicon. 2003] - PubMed result


3. For Redback spider and Black Widow bites.
“There is considerable species variation in susceptibility to envenomation. The guinea pig, horse and camel are very susceptible while the dog is relatively resistant to the effects of the venom. It is seldom lethal in dogs unless a considerable number of bites are inflicted, as would most likely only occur under experimental conditions. The susceptibility of the cat probably lies between that of guinea pigs and dogs."
"Redback antivenom is not normally required as a life saving measure in dogs, but its use may be considered in cases where redback envenomation is suspected in order to relieve the immediate discomfort or where a pre-existing condition, such as cardiac dysfunction, is present.”

“It is reported that cats, being more susceptible to redback venom, do receive antivenom from veterinarians and respond dramatically in minutes with significant lessening of signs."

Spider Bite | Australian Venom Research Unit

So their u have it many different animals reacting way differently to different individual neurotoxic venom's. The dog is resistant to the neurotoxic venom of the redback and black widow, extremely weak to the neurotoxic venom of the tarantula and highly resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin. The cat is then highly resistant to the funnel web, weak to the redback and the black widow and very weak to tarantula[ through not as weak as the dog]. Humans are weak to the funnel web, very resistant to the tarantula and moderately strong to the funnel web/black widow. Rabbits are very resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin yet they get taken out in the 20's by black mamba neurotoxins and the same goes for dogs[ I have an account where 4 dogs were killed at once by a single black mamba] yet they are resistant to most spider neurotoxins[ except for the tarantula which they are extremely weak to] and they extremely weak to many snake neurotoxins.

And look at this... A single black mamba killed 15 rabbits at one time[ without getting hurt]

Black Mamba | Nature | PBS Video

The scene happens from 00:31:48-00:32:12

So this is another example... Both the black mamba and the funnel web are neurotoxic... but the funnel web barely hurts rabbits at all and a black mamba venom absolutely devastates them... So why is that..? Easy awnser... because ALL animals react differently to different snake venoms.. Their is no uniform level of toxicity for all animals... And the only way to get an acurate reading is to test it on THAT SPECIFIC ANIMALS ie humans... Obviously this will never happen but the mice tests are a sorry excuse for a "toxicity study"

It is starting to seem to me it more like mmafan555 is upset that the snakes they have there aren't as venomous as ours. We ca say we have X amount of the most venomous snakes in the world as the LD50 proves it, there is no other test to prove otherwise, so why are you guys continuing on a path that has no results? Anyway, enough of this continuing dribble if you ask me, the points have been made, nothing left to discuss really.

Australians are most likely going to say to people that "australia has the worlds deadliest venomous snakes" and "australia has the most deadly animals in the entire world" etc etc no matter what evidence I provide... so your right there is no point to this thread in reality...

 

[moosenoose]

I wanted so desperately to post this next pic....but I'm enjoying the thread too much. Don't let it deter you....please continue

 

[hugsta]

First off for the 100000000 time... Australia does NOT have the top 10 most venomous snakes to humans based on those stupid mice tests... It has 6 of the top 10 based on the ld50... So if your going to be ignorant enough to give the mice tests credibility... at least accurately portray the test and dont lie about it.. And in reality its only 4 of the top 10 as 3 different sub types of tiger snakes are used...which makes it 6.. It the inland taipan, coastal taipan, eastern brown and then the 3 tiger snakes...So please if your going to use the dumb tests atleast use it accurately.


Australians are most likely going to say to people that "australia has the worlds deadliest venomous snakes" and "australia has the most deadly animals in the entire world" etc etc no matter what evidence I provide... so your right there is no point to this thread in reality...

Ok can you please link the scientific test that has been carried out on humans to prove what is the most toxic snake venom when used on humans. Oh wait, you can't, why because there is none. I don't see anywhere that an australian has said that Australia has the top 10 most venomous snakes in the world, but you seem to be hung up on the fact the we think we do. Get over yourself, you cannot prove you are correct with how all snakes venom reacts in people as there is no test that proves otherwise. And no, most Aussies don't say we have the most 'deadliest' snakes in the world as that is not true. Stop trying to dig up ****e from nowhere...geez.

Hahaha, love your work moose, go to see you are still on the ball after all these years on APS...lol

 

[Klaery]

Ok can you please link the scientific test that has been carried out on humans to prove what is the most toxic snake venom when used on humans. Oh wait, you can't, why because there is none.

We ca say we have X amount of the most venomous snakes in the world as the LD50 proves it

But the point is it has been proven, via an LD50 test. This proves the levels of venom toxicity in snakes. How can you say it is no good when you have absolutely nothing to compare it with? Your arguement is null and void as you cannot prove that viper venom is more potent to humans then taipan venom without doing the relevant tests. It is all just heresay.

I don't have a problem with Australia claiming to have the top whatever number of deadly snakes or not. In fact I think it very likely that we do. Stop using LD50 on mice as a reliable reference though as has already been said like a billionty times it is not conclusive and thus is NOT evidence.

I do not think mmafan has any evidence what so ever that Aus snakes should not be in their current places as the most venomous. But on the other hand I do not believe the people arguing with him have any evidence what so ever that they should be.

The best we can do is guess.

 

[junglepython2]

This... and I'm going to post more direct snakebite studies tommorrow...


Here are some examples of different animals reacting differently to given toxins

1. Sydney funnel web venom causes only extremely mild signs in dogs cats mice rabbits etc but is very toxic and potentially lethal in even adult humans. The funnel web possessed a neurotoxin
Spider Envenomation, Funnel Web: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



2. Queensland Tarantula venom causes only very mild symptoms in humans, even in young children[ local pain] yet has a near 100% DEATH rate for dogs and a nearly 50 percent death rate for cats

"There were nine confirmed bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and seven in canines. These included bites by two Selenocosmia spp. and by two Phlogiellus spp. The nine spider bites in humans did not cause major effects. Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded. Puncture marks or bleeding were the next most common effect. In one case the spider had bitten through the patient's fingernail. Mild systemic effects occurred in one of nine cases. There were seven bites in dogs (Phlogellius spp. and Selenocosmia spp.), and in two of these the owner was bitten after the dog. In all seven cases the dog died, and as rapidly as 0.5-2h after the bite. This small series of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders gives an indication of the spectrum of toxicity of these spiders in humans. Bites by these spiders are unlikely to cause major problems in humans. The study also demonstrates that the venom is far more toxic to canines."

Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in hu... [Toxicon. 2003] - PubMed result


3. For Redback spider and Black Widow bites.
“There is considerable species variation in susceptibility to envenomation. The guinea pig, horse and camel are very susceptible while the dog is relatively resistant to the effects of the venom. It is seldom lethal in dogs unless a considerable number of bites are inflicted, as would most likely only occur under experimental conditions. The susceptibility of the cat probably lies between that of guinea pigs and dogs."
"Redback antivenom is not normally required as a life saving measure in dogs, but its use may be considered in cases where redback envenomation is suspected in order to relieve the immediate discomfort or where a pre-existing condition, such as cardiac dysfunction, is present.”

“It is reported that cats, being more susceptible to redback venom, do receive antivenom from veterinarians and respond dramatically in minutes with significant lessening of signs."

Spider Bite | Australian Venom Research Unit

So their u have it many different animals reacting way differently to different individual neurotoxic venom's. The dog is resistant to the neurotoxic venom of the redback and black widow, extremely weak to the neurotoxic venom of the tarantula and highly resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin. The cat is then highly resistant to the funnel web, weak to the redback and the black widow and very weak to tarantula[ through not as weak as the dog]. Humans are weak to the funnel web, very resistant to the tarantula and moderately strong to the funnel web/black widow. Rabbits are very resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin yet they get taken out in the 20's by black mamba neurotoxins and the same goes for dogs[ I have an account where 4 dogs were killed at once by a single black mamba] yet they are resistant to most spider neurotoxins[ except for the tarantula which they are extremely weak to] and they extremely weak to many snake neurotoxins.

And look at this... A single black mamba killed 15 rabbits at one time[ without getting hurt]

Black Mamba | Nature | PBS Video

The scene happens from 00:31:48-00:32:12

So this is another example... Both the black mamba and the funnel web are neurotoxic... but the funnel web barely hurts rabbits at all and a black mamba venom absolutely devastates them... So why is that..? Easy awnser... because ALL animals react differently to different snake venoms.. Their is no uniform level of toxicity for all animals... And the only way to get an acurate reading is to test it on THAT SPECIFIC ANIMALS ie humans... Obviously this will never happen but the mice tests are a sorry excuse for a "toxicity study"



Australians are most likely going to say to people that "australia has the worlds deadliest venomous snakes" and "australia has the most deadly animals in the entire world" etc etc no matter what evidence I provide... so your right there is no point to this thread in reality...

All that shows is that animals react differently to venoms. It doesn't show that o/s snakes are more venomous.......
Once again unless you have some other relevant info, the LD50 tests are only guides but they are the best guides that we currently have on snake toxicity to humans. I do however look forward to reading these further snakebite studies you have.

 

[redbellybite]

Can guarentee that an EASTERN BROWN BITE can kill ..this was done on a human and he died ...bought back to life had 3 heart attacks etc it !@#$%%^^ed him up big time ...so this one is on top of the list now

 

[tigerbudgie]

who cares? the fact is they kill you if they bite you and you don't get treatment.

 

[Parko]

''Get off you're high horse Australia'' as written by the original poster should actually be written ''Get off your high horse Australia''.This can be proven with an English dictionary.

 

[GellyAmbert]

Now i may not have read all of this thread.... i may have only gotten about 5 pages into it before i decided it was just going round in circles.....

But does anyone else feel kinda sorry for the feirce snake..?? always used as the example of a snake with a bite like fairy floss???

 

[mmafan555]

Ok can you please link the scientific test that has been carried out on humans to prove what is the most toxic snake venom when used on humans. Oh wait, you can't, why because there is none. I don't see anywhere that an australian has said that Australia has the top 10 most venomous snakes in the world, but you seem to be hung up on the fact the we think we do. Get over yourself, you cannot prove you are correct with how all snakes venom reacts in people as there is no test that proves otherwise. And no, most Aussies don't say we have the most 'deadliest' snakes in the world as that is not true. Stop trying to dig up ****e from nowhere...geez.

Hahaha, love your work moose, go to see you are still on the ball after all these years on APS...lol

Lol I could pull up about 50 sites that say that australia has 7-10 of the deadliest venomous snakes in the world etc etc... Irwin said that OZ has all ten lmao....Australians love to talk up their dangerous animals.....Seymour is the absolute worst and he has zero credibility as far as I am concerned. Theirs nothing wrong with that and I'm sure some of it is very true... but it does get tiring at times.. You know what if you want to believe that the ld50 test is okay than go right ahead.... You are right their is obviously no test on humans or any type of primate that I know of... so the only thing we really have is mice...I dont think its credible for humans... but thats just my opinion and you are entitled to yours....But if your going to use it please be accurate with it and say 6 of the top 10 instead of all the other wrong info...But also remember that means its perfectly safe to pick up a funnel web as their likely not dangerous to you... and also next time you go for a walk dont worry about your dog getting a tarantula bite... as tarantula bites only cause mild symptoms in humans so it should be all good...etc etc

All that shows is that animals react differently to venoms. It doesn't show that o/s snakes are more venomous.......
Once again unless you have some other relevant info, the LD50 tests are only guides but they are the best guides that we currently have on snake toxicity to humans. I do however look forward to reading these further snakebite studies you have.

Well it shows that the is a very likely chance that the ld50's for humans would be different than the ld50's for mice, dogs, cats, elephants, cattle, mongooses etc. So its not credible to just delcare that Australia has 6 of the top 10 just because they do for mice... Of course theirs no test on humans to prove that they it isnt credible either....

I will post the studies soon[ I need to find them all] but the thing with studies is that their are so many factors that effect envenomation symptoms that it is very hard to compare them are reach a conclusion...It's a bit like the ld50 in that regard through its probably even more hard to judge how credible it is.

I don't have a problem with Australia claiming to have the top whatever number of deadly snakes or not. In fact I think it very likely that we do. Stop using LD50 on mice as a reliable reference though as has already been said like a billionty times it is not conclusive and thus is NOT evidence.

I do not think mmafan has any evidence what so ever that Aus snakes should not be in their current places as the most venomous. But on the other hand I do not believe the people arguing with him have any evidence what so ever that they should be.

The best we can do is guess.

But why do you think its "very likely" that australia has the top number of venomous snakes? What real evidence is their for that? If not for the ld50 what reliable references for such a statement do you have? I agree with you...the real awnser is that none of us have any real clue as to which snakes are the most potent to humans... we can hypothesize and make decent guesses and maybe get a few of them right but we certainly dont know for a fact and statements such as "this is the 2nd most toxic land snake etc etc" are unforunded imo and this debate is useless because their is no evidence either way

 

[AllThingsReptile]

im staying out of this, i have a strong belief about certain factors, but im not going to share