Get off you're high horse Australia!

[moosenoose]

First off your eastern brown comment is laughable... The people in india would GLADLY rather have an eastern brown then a few of the snakes that they have now...

Laughable?? You make me laugh :lol: Clearly you've had nothing to do with eastern browns!

Also, the biggest problem in places like India is undoubtably their access to antivenom, hence the increase in fatalities! So, the highly dangerous state of affairs that seems to paraded around here so loosely in regards to snake-bite in these particular countries comes down purely to the very basic fact that they are limited to poor access to medical aid and suffer from over-population! Nothing more.

Quite frankly I couldn't care less who has the deadliest. It seems to be ruffling a few foreign feathers though :lol: A bit of jealousy creeping in there for some reason!? So until there is another measurement of toxicity levels, the current one would have to stand?? What else is available?

 

[D3pro]

The most venomous snake, is the one that just bit you.

 

[Darlyn]

"First off your eastern brown comment is laughable... The people in india would GLADLY rather have an eastern brown then a few of the snakes that they have now... "

Wow, you speak for all of India, and you reckon Aussies exagerate!

 

[waruikazi]

I called them pussies. Purely to entice an emotional response from Aussie herpers and wow did it work! Two and a half years later it still has people in a twist.

I look at this thread at the reliable information in it differently, i don't think it down plays an envenomation from anything. If you read what is written you'll see that i have shown pretty categorically that bites, from apparently less toxic snakes, kill far more people than the supposedly more dangerous.

The thing that saves or kills you is the medical attention that you recieve post bite. I think i'm one of the bigger safety Sam's on this site, i don't encourage complacency when it comes to snake bites.

waruikazi can you please stop using my quote on the end of all your posts, its getting a little old and its also making fun of freedom of speed on this site!!.'
thanks mate

Trying to censor my signature makes more fun of freedom of speed! But OK i'll keep my eye out for another post i think is silly enough.

I don't know who called our elapids pussies, but I think you may be part of the overall feel of this irresponsible thread trying to downplay an envenomation from highly venomous snakes.

I have met the fella who has been administered the record dose of taipan antivenom for his bite from a coastal tai which he copped under the armpit, and he was extremely fortunate to have got to the hospital. Not to mention extremely fortunate to have come back at all as he was, for so long, basically dead.

To try to downplay the effects of envenomation even from our "harmless" elapids, is irresponsible and downright dangerous in itself as NO-ONE knows how a bite will affect them. I was given some examples from S. Eipper the other day-
Demansia- confirmed death of 1 person in PNG
Hemiaspis- have caused significant local and mild systematic effects, however they have caused a very serious anaphylactic reaction in a herper who has been bitten previously by other species.
Cacophis- have killed large dogs there fore potentially dangerous to young or elderly people.
Parasuta- have caused an anaphylactic death in Vic 2007
Boiga- have causd significant envenomation in minors in Guam, and anaphylactic reactions in herpers
Vermicella- have caused systemic evenomations
Cryptophis- has caused one death.
And the list goes on...

 

[85Hickey]

I thought this is how the thread would turn out. What a waste

 

[-Peter]

All comes down to the interpretation of, most dangerous, most venomous, most lethal, most deadly, most harmful all in relation to human biology..
Then you have to take into account population, geography, local attitudes, beliefs and customs and medical facilities and treatments available.


What kills people in India and SE Asia is poor knowledge, poor facilities, expensive treatments, population density and habitat coinciding.

 

[spotlight]

thanks waruikazi for being so understanding and correcting my spelling!

 

[cement]

I called them pussies. Purely to entice an emotional response from Aussie herpers and wow did it work! Two and a half years later it still has people in a twist.

I think your egomaniac nature would like to believe you have us all in a twist. Seem to be batting off over nothing there waruikazi.

I look at this thread at the reliable information in it differently, i don't think it down plays an envenomation from anything. If you read what is written you'll see that i have shown pretty categorically that bites, from apparently less toxic snakes, kill far more people than the supposedly more dangerous.

Yeah ok whatever.

The thing that saves or kills you is the medical attention that you recieve post bite. I think i'm one of the bigger safety Sam's on this site, i don't encourage complacency when it comes to snake bites.

Wow thats good to hear, but why not, their pussies right??

 

[waruikazi]

I think your egomaniac nature would like to believe you have us all in a twist. Seem to be batting off over nothing there waruikazi.

Yeah ok whatever.

Wow thats good to hear, but why not, their pussies right??

You certaintly seem to be in a bit of a twist, you've gone from thinking about snake bites to me batting off...

Take this info however you like. After looking at this thread, if you think that my comments and the article i posted mean to say that Aussie elapids aren't dangerous then that is your perogative. And more power to you! I thought you may have been more intelligent than that but yeah ok, whatever.

 

[hugsta]

You can't really compare an overcrowded 3rd world country to Australia. As far as I am concerned we have the worlds most venomous snakes, until a test other than an LD50 proves it otherwise. It is all we have to go on that compares all snakes the same way. And the most deadly snake will always be the one that is repsonsible for the most fatalities, whether that it caused from bad education, a lack of hospitals, available anti-venom etc. the one responsible for the most deaths will be the most deadly.

However, I am sure if you could supply hospital care and anti-venom, education on snake bite etc the way we have it here in Sri Lanka, I am sure the death rate over there would be non existant as well or very minimal and therefore the snake there would not be so deadly.

 

[fugawi]

HAHAHA you guys keep trying to put this back to "most deadly", start reading your own thread guys. As everyone keeps saying, two vastly different things. Venomous is a measurable toxicity level whereas deadly is just a pointless argument with too many variables. Who is more deadly Pres Obama with his finger on the button or good ole Ben, the SAS soldier, who just got a VC for killing Taliban with his bare hands? One could kill most of the population of the world, then there is Ben who could kill a complete "seal team" without breaking a sweat. Really, really stupid and pointless argument. So lets just forget deadliest.
You guys keep bringing up Funnel Web venom and how it doesn't effect mice but we are not talking about spiders. Lets just look.....Coastal Tai bites mouse, mouse dies....Coastal Tai bites (wet) human, human dies.....dog, dog dies....in fact the only thing that could survive its bite is possibly a large varinid like a Perentie. Ergo...spider argument doesn't work here. There is a long 240 year history of snake bite fatalities in Australia and except for the odd dry bite almost all, up to the advent of antivenom, were fatal. This is where the reputation for venomous animals came from, not just the LD50 test. You say that a lot of the critters are not just in Aus but spread over Australasia, true but no other country has them all like Australia. We have more venomous animals than any other country in the world, with a long list of HUMAN fatalities attributed to them.
At this point in time the LD50 test is the only scientifically accurate test of venom toxicity we have. The only difference between mice and humans for snake bite would be body mass.

 

[mmafan555]

You guys keep bringing up Funnel Web venom and how it doesn't effect mice but we are not talking about spiders. Lets just look.....Coastal Tai bites mouse, mouse dies....Coastal Tai bites (wet) human, human dies.....dog, dog dies....in fact the only thing that could survive its bite is possibly a large varinid like a Perentie. Ergo...spider argument doesn't work here. There is a long 240 year history of snake bite fatalities in Australia and except for the odd dry bite almost all, up to the advent of antivenom, were fatal. This is where the reputation for venomous animals came from, not just the LD50 test. You say that a lot of the critters are not just in Aus but spread over Australasia, true but no other country has them all like Australia. We have more venomous animals than any other country in the world, with a long list of HUMAN fatalities attributed to them.
At this point in time the LD50 test is the only scientifically accurate test of venom toxicity we have. The only difference between mice and humans for snake bite would be body mass.

Bull crap... Humans and mice and dogs, cats, every other mammal react very differently to different toxins... As for the fatality rate actullay if you read studies... Aussie snakes dont seem to cause as bad symptoms as Asian Snakes... The taipan is an exception and I think it is the most venomous snake to humans as well as mice... through their another snake that I think could rival it... Stop saying that people are getting most venomous and most deadly confused... we aren't... People are getting most venomous to MICE and most venomous to other animals confused.... The most deadly should only have to do with human fatalities no matter the conditions.

As for the taipan... I could think of a few animals that would have a chance of surviving its bite[ mongoose, meerkat, honey badger, etc]... All these animals are known to be resistant to neurotoxins... so theirs a good chance that they could survive a taipans bite even if it has a more potent neurotoxin than a say a cobra. The taipan is also hemotoxic and causes your blood to not clot so maybe that would allow it to kill a neurotoxic resistant animal like a mongoose. But I honestly have no idea

And lol the reputation of your venomous snakes has little to do with fatalities in the past.... It comes from the mouths of the "exaggerating Aussies"

 

[Klaery]

You guys keep bringing up Funnel Web venom and how it doesn't effect mice but we are not talking about spiders. Lets just look.....Coastal Tai bites mouse, mouse dies....Coastal Tai bites (wet) human, human dies.....dog, dog dies....in fact the only thing that could survive its bite is possibly a large varinid like a Perentie. Ergo...spider argument doesn't work here.

I don't understand your logic? The funnelweb argument is just providing evidence of a venom obviously affecting different animals in different ways. Nothing to do with spiders, it is about venoms (though it seems you have missed the point). Are you saying that snake venom is somehow vastly different from all other venoms in this respect?

 

[mmafan555]

Here are some examples of different animals reacting differently to given toxins

1. Sydney funnel web venom causes only extremely mild signs in dogs cats mice rabbits etc but is very toxic and potentially lethal in even adult humans. The funnel web possessed a neurotoxin
Spider Envenomation, Funnel Web: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



2. Queensland Tarantula venom causes only very mild symptoms in humans, even in young children[ local pain] yet has a near 100% DEATH rate for dogs and a nearly 50 percent death rate for cats

"There were nine confirmed bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and seven in canines. These included bites by two Selenocosmia spp. and by two Phlogiellus spp. The nine spider bites in humans did not cause major effects. Local pain was the commonest effect, with severe pain in four of seven cases where severity of pain was recorded. Puncture marks or bleeding were the next most common effect. In one case the spider had bitten through the patient's fingernail. Mild systemic effects occurred in one of nine cases. There were seven bites in dogs (Phlogellius spp. and Selenocosmia spp.), and in two of these the owner was bitten after the dog. In all seven cases the dog died, and as rapidly as 0.5-2h after the bite. This small series of bites by Australian theraphosid spiders gives an indication of the spectrum of toxicity of these spiders in humans. Bites by these spiders are unlikely to cause major problems in humans. The study also demonstrates that the venom is far more toxic to canines."

Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in hu... [Toxicon. 2003] - PubMed result


3. For Redback spider and Black Widow bites.
“There is considerable species variation in susceptibility to envenomation. The guinea pig, horse and camel are very susceptible while the dog is relatively resistant to the effects of the venom. It is seldom lethal in dogs unless a considerable number of bites are inflicted, as would most likely only occur under experimental conditions. The susceptibility of the cat probably lies between that of guinea pigs and dogs."
"Redback antivenom is not normally required as a life saving measure in dogs, but its use may be considered in cases where redback envenomation is suspected in order to relieve the immediate discomfort or where a pre-existing condition, such as cardiac dysfunction, is present.”

“It is reported that cats, being more susceptible to redback venom, do receive antivenom from veterinarians and respond dramatically in minutes with significant lessening of signs."

Spider Bite | Australian Venom Research Unit

So their u have it many different animals reacting way differently to different individual neurotoxic venom's. The dog is resistant to the neurotoxic venom of the redback and black widow, extremely weak to the neurotoxic venom of the tarantula and highly resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin. The cat is then highly resistant to the funnel web, weak to the redback and the black widow and very weak to tarantula[ through not as weak as the dog]. Humans are weak to the funnel web, very resistant to the tarantula and moderately strong to the funnel web/black widow. Rabbits are very resistant to the funnel web neurotoxin yet they get taken out in the 20's by black mamba neurotoxins and the same goes for dogs[ I have an account where 4 dogs were killed at once by a single black mamba] yet they are resistant to most spider neurotoxins[ except for the tarantula which they are extremely weak to] and they extremely weak to many snake neurotoxins.

And look at this... A single black mamba killed 15 rabbits at one time[ without getting hurt]

Black Mamba | Nature | PBS Video

The scene happens from 00:31:48-00:32:12

So this is another example... Both the black mamba and the funnel web are neurotoxic... but the funnel web barely hurts rabbits at all and a black mamba venom absolutely devastates them... So why is that..? Easy awnser... because ALL animals react differently to different snake venoms.. Their is no uniform level of toxicity for all animals... And the only way to get an acurate reading is to test it on THAT SPECIFIC ANIMALS ie humans... Obviously this will never happen but the mice tests are a sorry excuse for a "toxicity study"

 

[hugsta]

You are correct mmafan555, but this debate is also pointless. As I posted, until a different test is carried on different animals the only thing we have to compare all snakes to is an LD50, all the rest is just speculation that snake X can be more venomous then snake Y when used on humans.

Fugawi you can't compare people with reptiles, what a stupid analagy. That is like saying what is most deadly, the coastal taipan who is at war with people or the inland taipan that has commanded his minions to take down the terrorist human race. Get some real analagies if you want to compare things.

As far as deadly goes, why is so complicated. Snake X killed 50,000 ppl this year, snake Y killed 44,975 therefore snake X is the most deadly to humans. All the determining factors inbetween are at this stage uncontrollable, so unless Sri Lanka suddenly becomes a 1st world country with premium hospitals all over the place, anti venom readily available to administer, an education system that teaches them about reptile safety and awareness etc etc, nothing is going to change.

 

[mmafan555]

You are correct mmafan555, but this debate is also pointless. As I posted, until a different test is carried on different animals the only thing we have to compare all snakes to is an LD50, all the rest is just speculation that snake X can be more venomous then snake Y when used on humans.

Fugawi you can't compare people with reptiles, what a stupid analagy. That is like saying what is most deadly, the coastal taipan who is at war with people or the inland taipan that has commanded his minions to take down the terrorist human race. Get some real analagies if you want to compare things.

As far as deadly goes, why is so complicated. Snake X killed 50,000 ppl this year, snake Y killed 44,975 therefore snake X is the most deadly to humans. All the determining factors inbetween are at this stage uncontrollable, so unless Sri Lanka suddenly becomes a 1st world country with premium hospitals all over the place, anti venom readily available to administer, an education system that teaches them about reptile safety and awareness etc etc, nothing is going to change.

Nice post and I agree 100 percent. Arguing "most venomous/most dangerous" is pointless and their are so many variables and factors especially with most dangerous that its kind of a endless and useless arguement. The actual snake that bites you isnt all that important in your chance of survival... What really plays a role in your chances for survival is the post bite treatment that you get and how fast you get it and obviously Sri Lanka, Burma, India arent even remotely comparable to Australia in that regard not to mention reptile awareness/education etc and the fact that compared to these countries Australia is huge land wise but has a tiny population and an extremely low population density.

 

[cement]

You certaintly seem to be in a bit of a twist, you've gone from thinking about snake bites to me batting off...

Take this info however you like. After looking at this thread, if you think that my comments and the article i posted mean to say that Aussie elapids aren't dangerous then that is your perogative. And more power to you! I thought you may have been more intelligent than that but yeah ok, whatever.

At the risk of sounding unintelligent, if you can't measure the potency of a venom on humans, then how do you know?

To say aussie elapids don't leave after bite symptoms and problems, tell that to the people who have suffered renal failure, or had digits/ limbs removed.

This is all about the LD50 right? So if the LD50 is not a good test (which i agree it isn't) Then how do we know that your overseas species are more toxic? There is NO test for snake venom toxicity on humans that could be done so what the hell is everyone batting off over on this thread?

Do aussie snakes have the most toxic venom in the world? Who really gives a stuff?? There's plenty of evidence to suggest that they are right up there. Does anyone care for some inland Tai, brown or tiger directly into the vein? All the first aid in the world would be hard pressed saving a life there.

Who are you talking at when you say get off your high horse? An imaginary band of yobs who paint themselves green and gold and shout from the rooftops that we are the best because we have THE MOST VENOMOUS??

Like its been said, until we have another test, its all we got, if your that upset about it and feel the need to ridicule it then be my guest. There is more important things to do then carry on with this crap.

later wazza

 

[slim6y]

Here's an LD50 taken on pigs - it is assumed that pigs are jolly close to humans....

Optimization irradiation conditions for determinat... [Strahlentherapie. 1975] - PubMed result

What about LD50 taken dermally, orally, IV etc...

Here's another LD50 video - with monkeys:

[video=youtube;cQ7J7UjsRqg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7J7UjsRqg[/video]




PS - sorry about the vid... poor taste... but it's damned funny!!!

 

[mmafan555]

GET OFF YOUR HIGHHORSE mmafan555, I am guessing you are from the USA.

And you dare to call us arrogant.

As I say find an aboriginal from the vicinity that they are found in with stories of inland tais and ask one of them to help you catch one. lmao.

If one of my mate's "fiercies" escaped when it was hungry on a warm day in Sydney, it would be a a true test when it saw a food source. Being captively bred they have lost their fear of humans and see us as their mealticket. When I see them, as soon as they see me their eyes follow me.

mmafan55, why don't you come over and get tagged by a juvinile and agree (by contract) to deny any help for lets say 5 minutes, then you must ask for help (part of the agreement) if you can. Come on, they're just pussies and you're not a mouse are you?

Lol yes I am American... and I didn't say that Australians are arrogant[ their not]... but they do imo tend to exxagerate and imo they do seem to love pushing the idea to foreigners that they have all the worlds most deadly animals etc and it confuses me alittle... And lol I didnt say that a brown snake isnt dangerous to humans... it obviously is a dangerous animal. You misunderstood my argument/posts completely. Obviously I would have to be mentally retarded to let a brown snake bite me... just as you would be if you let a so called "lesser venomous" non native snake bite you

 

[slim6y]

Hey mmafan.... Perhaps then you'd like to elaborate...

Please describe (in your words, not dictionary or google words) what you believe the meaning of a 'dangerous animal' is:

It may help to clear up your ideas to settle what we believe you're talking about...

And to be totally honest - all those 'dissing' the LD50 tests - again, I see no clear evidence to suggest that they're not accurate for their purpose... In fact, I think they substantially cover exactly what they're designed to do... And - what a thankless job these rats, mice, guinea pigs, pigs, cats, dogs, rabbits, monkeys, etc etc did for US! And now, you're saying (some people) that it was a waste of time... They gave our life so we could put better make up on our faces, wear sunscreen, ingest paracetamol, dye our hair brown, wear nicer smelling perfumes... They gave up their lives so we could test the lethality of snake venom, spider venom, probably even centipede and scorpion too... Bees, wasps, hornets... Maybe, just maybe they also tested anti-venoms and remedies that we currently use...

To me, the LD50 test is the test that we have used conclusively for the past 60 or 70 years and no one (until now) has really even batted an eyelid to say... whoa... that's no good, we're humans!!!

So I am suggesting that we firstly take the unemployed and those that dropped out of school to begin doing our first set of human tests... We should use drug users too... just to see... Then I think Lawyers and hairdressers - and maybe those make up sales assistants too... They can be another test group... I'm happy to be in a control group... So long the control is 'nothing administered'.

Otherwise, let's just keep what we have, understand it's ideal for our current situation, and use the information gathered as required... And we'll stick with what most of the world also suggests, we have at least the first 5 or 6 spots of the world's most venomous snakes... And to top that off... they're damned dangerous if you get bitten as a human... Though many people survive due to modern medicine and the fact that there is a quick pressure bandage remedy that can keep you alive (depending on snake and bite location) for hours.

Currently at JCU - a friend of the family is working on a self tightening pressure bandage that will firther save lives - by applying just the right amount of pressure to the affected limbs... Now why would they have such funding if Australian venomous snakes weren't 'dangerous' - oh, it's because we're on our high horses with too much money... I am thankful for these researchers and the fact they may save lives... but not that of mice, rats, and many other prey items....