3 in 1

[adullthud]

Hi, Thought I might put in my 2 bucks worth.
I doubt that you have an intergrade or intergrate(depending on whos talking at the tome)
I doubt hybrid as you would have deformities. Diamondxcarpet isnt a hybrid as they are the same species.
Intergrade in NSW in the context of NPWS refers to the naturally occuring regional variation or subspecies(depending on whos talking)that occurs where populations of coast and diamonds merge. The idea is that intergrades exist as separate populations to the other two.
Richard Wells maintains that intergrade populations exist in the extremes of the range of M. spilorta spilota. So south, west and north but no M.spilota wettus wettus to the east.
So you would get to the south and west Morelia spilota metcalfii spilota(?)
I have one natural intergrade and another that looks very similar but I put it down as a cross.
I think you have a coastal that may have been crossed with another coastal that had a regional variation but there is the possibility that it was crossed with a cheynii. Who knows. The breeder obviously didnt. He may have been keeping everything together in the hope of breeding and wouldnt have a clue.

 

[Fuscus]

At some stage the coastal and diamond populations were completely separate. The populations did not interbreed and became separate sub-species. If this process continued then eventually they would become separate species and hybrids would become very rare or impossible. This is called evolution.
What is happening with the coastals and diamond is that one is proberly increasing its range and the zone of intersection (around Coffs Harbour) is where we get the intergrades. If this process continues one variety will eventually be absorbed into the others population. This is also called evolution.
Now I can see a possible cause for Bels problem in telling what kind of snake it is. I think of an intergrade as having a Diamond parent and a Coastal parent. By it could easily have a coastal parent and an intergrade parent, i.e. only one grand parent being of diamond descent (or ? diamond). Or if the snake has only one great-grand parent, is that still an intergrade? I think I may have opened a can of worms here, I might just sit back and watch.

But one other thing. When you get your fauna license is SA, the pamphlet that you receive with it states quite clearly that it is illegal to cross breed species or sub-species, which makes me wonder how you would go keeping an intergrade here.

 

[Gregory]

Well hang on a tick and hold the phones. I have to actually agree with John on this.

Kill it I reckon.

 

[NoOne]

Fuscus, i think you need to go to Port Macquaire and have a look around.
Then come and tell me that Port Mac intergrades aren't a seperate sub species.
I can tell you the time i've spent there all we ever found were intergrades, no diamonds, no carpets.
For the last time intergrades breed with intergrades in the wild and they are not hybrids.
I remember saying months ago that i would not enter another thread on this topic but the right info needs to be told.

There is to a lesser extent a coffs harbour intergrade but these are far more coastal like.

Adullthud, what do mean by diamonds and carpets being the same species and why would a hybrid have deformities? That sentence seems deformed to me.

 

[Fuscus]

(drags books out - again)
Keeping carpet pythons (Simon Kortlang & Darren Green) says "the diamond python range as basically coastal NSW from about Ballina and a bit of Victoria. Natural Intergrades between M. s. spilota and M. s. mcdowelli are known to occur in the northern most region of their distribution."
NoOne is saying that the entire gene pool in the port Mac area are intergrades and that it should be treated as a separate sub species. That is a valid idea, more work may be needed in this area. I said before that one sub species will absorb the other sub species, but perhaps a third sub species is being formed.

As for having a wander around port Mac, hopefully I'll be in the area in spring next year. Nothing is better than having a look for your self.

 

[Belinda]

Ha ha....Looks like it has started again ...Ok, I really only wanted to know what species it was, not about the whole hybrid and Intergrade stuff i have been told over and over again ...Oh and Greg? I am not going to kill it... Let me ask you a question... If a black guy had a baby with a white woman, would you kill the baby?

 

[Brodie]

that is such a bad and racist comparison belinda.....

 

[Belinda]

I know it is...But its the same for a snake...Just because two completely different snakes breed..It doesnt mean you should kill the babies.

 

[Brodie]

just because two people are a different colour doesnt mean they are completely different people

 

[bkgone]

shame shame

 

[Belinda]

WEll duh... Brodie, I didnt make that comment to be Racist..I am Far from being racist...I was just saying that to make you think and relise its not right to kill hyrbid snakes because they are hyrbid.

 

[Brodie]

It is right to kill hyrbid snakes.... and just because u didnt make the comment to be racist doesnt mean it didnt sound racist and it is still a horribly bad comparison

 

[Belinda]

Yeah well it says that the question was directed to Greg because he said to kill my snake. And sorry If it sounded racist because it wasnt meant to...Things sound differently when they are typed....Sorry if anyone was offended but i did not mean to be racist in any way..

 

[lutzd]

My personal opinion : I don't think hybrids should be killed, but I do believe they shouldn't be allowed to mate in the future. There's no reason to kill an animal because someone was thoughtless enough to breed snakes in this fashion, providing the practise in not continued.

 

[Belinda]

Thats what I was trying to say...Thanks Lutzd Besides it isnt the snakes fault. I think that this subject should be discontinued before any arguments brake out.

 

[bkgone]

hybrids are cross snakes yeah?

 

[NoOne]

Info in books can only tell you so much, i've had a bit to do with them over the years, keeping them and looking for them in the wild.
I can also tell there is work going on at the moment by a Port Mac herper (some will know who i'm talking about) which will probably prove what most have suspected for years.

Fuscus if your going up there get out there and search around, you'll find them, at that time of year you may find animals mating, they will definatly be active. It's also a beutiful area.

On another note, belinda are you ever planning on breeding this animal?
Do you think anyone who brought the other hatchlings would breed them?

 

[Belinda]

Nah I am not going to breed from Him..I know it is wrong
Bk...Hyrbid, Cross, intergrade....I have no idea what the difference is lol so my posts might be a bit confusing, sorry.
Im not sure wether other people would breed from theirs but i am definately not

 

[mystic_herps]

Yes it does Belinda it is called law.It is illegal to cross breed reptiles.Please dont mis-interpret my comment or blow it out of proportion.I dont expect you to kill your pet,I do however expect breeders to cull any animals that are not 100% healthy or that are accidently cross bred (like that would be hard to avoid lol).

Even Diamond/Coastal hybrids.
Although they interbreed in nature,you must remember that they have done so for generations and are now a sub species.Purposely cross breeding Diamonds with Coastals will not give you a natural intergrade,it will give you a mutant hybrid.

What is the point of a hobby if you dont know what it is you actually collect? That is the case in some circumstances already (your situation for example) And it will only get worse in the future with the more cross breeding people are doing.Because too many people will lie about the stock...

 

[NoOne]

You may know it's wrong which is good but do the others know, probably not, the breeder isn't going to tell them. Thats the exact reason why they should be culled.
You can bet at least one person will breed from those snakes not knowing any better and then it starts over.
Another alternative would be to make them all sterile some how, with a drug or something.
Something needs to be done about it because it's the kind of thing that could get out of hand.