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Greebo

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I have seen ads for juveniles lately claiming they are bred for temprament. I don't understand exactly how they think they are achieving this. Does this mean that the parents are both docile and good handlers therefore the offspring will supposedly possess the same demeanor?
Does anyone think this is possible? If one of the parents is a bad handler will the offpsring also be bad handlers. Personally I don't think it works that way. I have an evil female water python but her offspring last year are all well behaved pythons. They don't seem to have inherited the 'evil' gene.

I understand breeding for colouring but does anyone think it is possible to breed for temprament??
 
That's what they say that they do with dogs (Pedigrees that is) so I wouldn't have the faintest if it can or can't be passed on genetically :? ... It's an interesting concept though.
Too bad if your best looker has a feral personality :lol:
I think that I will just continue breeding for colour ;)
Bex
 
Of course!

Virtually every trait has a genetic component. Traits such as temperament are contolled by many genes as well as environmental influences, so it's not a simple case of friendly parents will have friendly children and nasty parents will have nasty children - every time - but there is a very strong correlation. Incidentally, although this has been demonstrated in many species (including humans), the implications on political correctness etc tend to make the findings less well publicised.

Most animals don't clone themselves, so each individual is a randomly selected half of each parent, rearranged. This can give phenotypes anywhere between that of the parents and even substantially outside that range, but for many traits, temperament being a perfect example, there is a very strong correlation.

How else would you explain certain species having well known temperament trends? Red bellied black snakes and copper heads are well known for being very docile, eastern browns and slatey grey snakes are well known for being very nasty. If you breed these things, you'd expect the trend to continue, obviously. Okay, that may sound strange because they're different species, but the principle is exactly the same. Jungle carpets are well known for being nasty, Murray-Darling carpets are well known for being docile, again, that's genetic, quite clearly. Bash a snake over the head with a shovel every day and it will probably be nasty, no matter what its genetic makeup, gently handle a snake every now and again from the time it is born/hatches and it will likely be tame, even if it's a brown snake or jungle carpet, sure, but you can see that the genetic component is a strong and very important one. I cringe every time I see people say "temperament not important because it will be a breeder". If breeders don't care about temperament, but 'pet owners' with no intention of breeding do, we'll end up with a captive population filled with nasty snakes. It's really great to see some people putting an effort into selecting the very best snakes to breed from, and really bad when people just don't care. When you're selecting a breeder, it's not just a matter of choosing one snake, you're choosing what may be used to replicate dozens or hundreds of times; it's a very big responsibility.

We all know that everything resembles its parents. Unless the alleles (what most people call genes) controlling a trait are fixed, there is genetic variation affecting the trait. Typically, if this is the case, there is extremely little variation in the trait. Human body temperature is a good example (because it is well understood and the phenotype is familiar to us). (Basically speaking) We all have the same genetic makeup controlling our body temperatures, and our body temperatures vary very little from one another. The miniscule differences, (with few exceptions, they're not measurable or identifyable as they are completely lost in the normal fluctuations which occur withing individuals and would typically be immesurable, even if we sat for our whole lives at the flat mean temperature we would otherwise have had). Being something which geneticists well know to be highly governed by genetics across many species, temperament in snakes can be most definately said to have a strong genetic component. Over time, we will loose more and more genetic variation from our captive gene pools and so right now it is absolutely critical that we choose the very best of what we have to breed from, in terms of any trait we are interested in.
 
I understand breeding for colouring but does anyone think it is possible to breed for temprament??
Just a marketing ploy Greebo, I've been breeding for 15 yrs and I'm yet to see one scrap of evidence to suggest docile snakes produce docile babies. I have two of the most placid olives you could imagine but a good percentage of their babies have turned out down right nasty. One of my males maccies is as nasty as hell yet I don't see any significant increase in agressive offspring that he's sired.
I sit back and laugh at this time of year as well, when there's a glut of hatchlings on the market you'll see all sorts of poems and promises as to why someones hatchlings are better than others. I always believe quality hatchlings from reputable breeders will sell themselves without the need for such sales techniques.
 
Greebo, I was just about to ask the same question myself, thanks! :D
 
DELLUDED NEWBIE MOTTO!
As a 1st time breeder you must advertise your clutch as multi-generation, selective bred progeny, bred for colour/markings & temprament. A care sheet should be re-produced from another persons website and be given to any purchasers of your animals so you look professional in your hobby. You should also ask a higher price than average for your animals as you have excelled yourself this season producing your 1st clutch & deserve a little more spending money than those in the hobby that have bred in previous years.

NOTE:
You may experience delays in moving your animals. If this happens feel free to add your own ploy to this motto.
 
You may experience delays in moving your animals. If this happens feel free to add your own ploy to this motto.
I was considering telling people that my hatchlings were an accidental hybrid and strongly suggest that they not be bred further. Now I'll be sure to add that they have magic powers, are able to talk and can also play the cello. :wink:
 
DELLUDED NEWBIE MOTTO!
As a 1st time breeder you must advertise your clutch as multi-generation, selective bred progeny, bred for colour/markings & temprament. A care sheet should be re-produced from another persons website and be given to any purchasers of your animals so you look professional in your hobby. You should also ask a higher price than average for your animals as you have excelled yourself this season producing your 1st clutch & deserve a little more spending money than those in the hobby that have bred in previous years.

NOTE:
You may experience delays in moving your animals. If this happens feel free to add your own ploy to this motto.
LOL couldn't have said it better!
 
DELLUDED NEWBIE MOTTO!
As a 1st time breeder you must advertise your clutch as multi-generation, selective bred progeny, bred for colour/markings & temprament. A care sheet should be re-produced from another persons website and be given to any purchasers of your animals so you look professional in your hobby. You should also ask a higher price than average for your animals as you have excelled yourself this season producing your 1st clutch & deserve a little more spending money than those in the hobby that have bred in previous years.

NOTE:
You may experience delays in moving your animals. If this happens feel free to add your own ploy to this motto.
Just wondering if you're applying this to most first time breeders or just some here and there.If you know you've purchased multigeneration animals and have produced from them is there something wrong in stating this.

To me if i was looking at purchasing i'd be going for line bred animals for colour etc as i'm sure would most!With most animals inbreeding is a no no but with reptiles most people aim to selectively breed including inbreeding"line breeding" multi generational animals...it has been proven the colours and consistancy improves over generations of line breeding many many times so why not advertise it?

I'd say if you're not moving your animals you're probably asking too much and as for breeding for temperament who knows other than the honest very long term breeders.
 
I don't have a formed opinion either way but will say some very experienced breeders use the term bred for temperament, Southern X reptiles being a good example. So i wonder who wants to call them deluded? Or is it only valid for lesser known breeders?
 
Obviously if you know they have been specifically bred for a certain colour or marking by all means go ahead & state it. Give credit to the original creator also & mention who actually held back & bred them for all these years.

But my post was made in jest for those who know nothing about the animals background other than the species name. Chosing 2 animals they think are pretty from "breeder 1" does not mean their offspring are selective bred progeny :lol:

The majority of captive bred animals are multi-gen anyway as most states in AUS are past the stage of pillaging wildlife. I just find it amusing that many keepers use the term multi-gen regardless of knowing their background or not. I find it even funnier when these so called multi-gen, selective bred animals are your standard normal faze species with no reasoning to be held back & bred from. What were they selective bred for? To produce larger numbers in their collection maybe...
 
J&C, Yes I understood your comment was in jest, and dont dispute what you are saying about how some would use the term to make it sound like they had done all the hard work. The question is though, is breeding for temperament possible? Breeders such as southern X say yes it is because they themselves claim to do so. In this thread it seems some ppl believe it to be a ''newbies sales pitch'' which considering experienced and well known breeders use the line also seems a bit unfair wouldn't you agree? Also as I think Browns was suggesting if an inexperienced breeder purchased animals from Southern X and then bred them wouldn't it be quite reasonable to claim the animals are selectively bred for temperament? Because they are, aren't they? Be a nice world if they didn't claim the credit for it though when ppl are purchasing, but in the end that is neither here nor there, the fact remains that experienced breeders claim you can selectively breed snakes for temperament.
 
Parko,- pick me!!!. If they say that, they are in my opinion VERY deluded.
Some speices are naturaly docile as a rule, simple as that, others get conditioned to captivity and learn that we arnt a threat to them, etc. But anoy the most docile of all snkes enough and sooner or later youll get tagged. Its a crock if you ask me for sure.
 
Parko,
I wish you had chose another breeder as an example.
It will be hard for me to argue the opinion of a major sponsor of this site without up-setting the moderators/owners here.

Anyway I will share my opinion without arguing who is wrong or right.
I believe Simon's animals may be selective bred for certain colours or markings (his Topaz woma's are a great example) but is there any proof to back-up his claim of selective breeding for temperament? Can it also be done in as much as 5, 6 or 7 generations? I am sure many members here have had 1 or more of Southern x reptile's animals show aggression. I am sure his Woma's still get snappy at feeding time, or his BHP show some sort of bluffing. All animals are individual, some will be placid some aggressive. If he has mastered the art of breeding for placidness in snakes he should give some tips to Ray Hoser, it will save Ray performing operations on his Elapids. I think handling helps with temperement but even then not all snakes are the same.

As for dogs being bred for temperement, these animals have been inbred, outbred & crossbred for hundreds of years. Maybe snakes will be bred for temperement one day in the future, but not just yet, we are still new to keeping reptiles in general.
 
Lol, OK Rock, I pick you. (not sure exactly what you've been chosen for but feel happy in the knowledge that you are ''the chosen one'') I was just wondering if the claim that it's baloney still stands when speaking about experienced breeders, you have cleared that up, thank you.
I agree with what J&C is saying in regards to dogs and cats being domesticated over hundreds of years thereby attaining the results they have, and it does indeed seem strange that snakes could achieve these results in just a few generations.
 
Lol, I just thought you thought no one would denounce southernx`s absurd claim, thats the way I interpreted any way.
 
Check the scientific literature before you start making claims based on nothing. There are well documented and published examples of animals being selectively bred for temperament, starting from fierce wild animals and ending up with absolutely friendly ones, this can and has been completed not over hundreds of years or generations, but over just a few. The biggest changes occur in the first few generations, after that, things stabilise.

There are many examples, but the classic one usually used to demonstrate the situation, is a trial someone did with foxes. Wild foxes (I can't remember the species, but they were vicious things) were taken into captivity, you couldn't touch them or they'd take your hand etc etc. At each generation the tamest ones were selected and within just a few (this was done within the life times of many of the members of this site) years/generations, all the animals produced from that line were absolute little darlings which people would play with and cuddle, just like the tamest of the modern dogs. They'd follow you around, run up for pats and cuddles, never bite, etc etc etc.

If anyone is actually interested in learning about stuff, rather than making an assumption and yammering on about it as though it's gospel, this experiment and others are documented in great detail and are available for anyone so inclined to get their hands on it.

Saying "I have a friendly snake which produces nasty babies" means nothing. Exceptions don't prove rules and having two individual snakes and breeding them is not a selection experiment.

I agree that advertising catch phrases such as 'multigeneration captive bred' and 'selectively bred' are often misused, often as outright lies, but it is possible and some people actually do carry out this sort of selective breeding to produce better animals (and plants and bacteria and fungi and....)

I'd have thought that someone like Dr Stone saying he selectively breeds for temperament would be enough to convince most of the members here, but obviously it isn't. As I said, if anyone is genuinely interested in knowing how things actually work, the scientific literature is a much better tool than threads like this.
 
The foxes were Vulpes vulpes, the breeding was done in Siberia.
A recent study by Brian hare from the Max Plank institute showed that not only were they friendly, they were much smarter than wild foxes.
 
Reminds me of first year uni...."nature vs. nurture". Lets say the veteran herper has line bred for 5 or 6 gens on average..... is that enough to suggest conclusive results based only observation?
 
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