reptililian
Very Well-Known Member
This study is documented in a book called "The Animal Attraction" by Dr Jonica Newby. Could find the page reference if you like.
Breeding for temprament?
- Thread starter Greebo
- Start date
Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:
- Status
I just did some quick googling, there's a heap of information about the foxes on the 'net. They were bred in Russia from wild caught silver foxes (Vulpes vulpes). The guy spent 24 years on the project, I can't find any specific data on how quickly they changed on the 'net, but it will be there for anyone who bothers to search for it. Apparently, as late as 1999 (over a decade after the guy who started the project died) some people were still breeding these foxes, presumably further improving the line. Unfortunately at one point their funding dried up and they had to sell most of them to a fur company!
Anyway, if vicious foxes can be domesticated in less than 25 years (this being only one example), snakes can be bred to be more docile too. The most dramatic changes occur in the first few generations of selective breeding and according to the real information available, it would be silly to suggest this couldn't be done. Doing it properly, however, requires careful consideration when selecting the animals and doing it properly requires more than "simple line breeding", so don't necessarily jump up and down running for the first person saying they're breeding selectively, but by all means, go for the animals with the traits you like and ones with parents which share them.
Anyway, if vicious foxes can be domesticated in less than 25 years (this being only one example), snakes can be bred to be more docile too. The most dramatic changes occur in the first few generations of selective breeding and according to the real information available, it would be silly to suggest this couldn't be done. Doing it properly, however, requires careful consideration when selecting the animals and doing it properly requires more than "simple line breeding", so don't necessarily jump up and down running for the first person saying they're breeding selectively, but by all means, go for the animals with the traits you like and ones with parents which share them.
reptililian
Very Well-Known Member
and had also developed physical traits that endeared them to humans, such as big, friendly eyes and cute pointy oversized ears.
peterjohnson64
Very Well-Known Member
I have seen this fox story on Discovery. Didn't they also start to mutate after a number of generations? This was explained as how dogs become so varied. I was also wondering when Sdaji was going to come back in on this debate. To my untrained eyes he had the best argument from the start.
However, of greater concern, is that fact that all the most timid snake offspring are being held back by certain breeders. That can't be good for the hobby. Don't sell the aggresive ones to the pet owners.
Maybe the breeders here who don't claim to be breeding for temperament are therfore keeping offspring for other reasons and allowing their most timid offspring to be sold.
To compare the fox experiment with snakes. You keep a clutch for a while. Determine which ones are crazy and which ones are docile. Keep the most docile. Only breed from them. Do the same to the next generation. And so on. You don't keep breeding the older generations. I doubt that this is being done with our snake breeders.
anyway, just my humble drunk opinion.
However, of greater concern, is that fact that all the most timid snake offspring are being held back by certain breeders. That can't be good for the hobby. Don't sell the aggresive ones to the pet owners.
Maybe the breeders here who don't claim to be breeding for temperament are therfore keeping offspring for other reasons and allowing their most timid offspring to be sold.
To compare the fox experiment with snakes. You keep a clutch for a while. Determine which ones are crazy and which ones are docile. Keep the most docile. Only breed from them. Do the same to the next generation. And so on. You don't keep breeding the older generations. I doubt that this is being done with our snake breeders.
anyway, just my humble drunk opinion.
No, they didn't start to mutate at any greater than a normal rate, but other genetic traits were revealed, either by pure chance, or perhaps more likely, due to linkage with the temperament genes (recombination and mutation are not the same thing). It could also have been due to pleiotropy. Whatever the case, it wasn't mutation.
You're quite right about many breeders keeping the unsellable/less appealing babies for financial reasons etc, then breeding from them, which as you say, it is of great concern.
You're quite right about many breeders keeping the unsellable/less appealing babies for financial reasons etc, then breeding from them, which as you say, it is of great concern.
peterjohnson64
Very Well-Known Member
Oops, Sdaji, thats not what I meant. I meant that the breeders were keeping the offspring that were less feisty. That is the only way they could breed for temperament. They keep the ones that are quiet (I said timid before) and sell the aggresive ones. As in the fox experiment. I thought you were alluding to this in your first post. sorry if I was wrong.
No worries, despite being a typo, what you described was actually what does go on in a lot of cases. Surprisingly few people realise the importance of choosing the best animals. On the other hand, some have been actively selective breedling for a long time. I know which ones I'd buy from! Having said that, for people knew to the herp world, it's easy to be deceived as there are so many liars about, which is absolutely terrible. Once you get to know more people, you find out who the genuine ones are, but unfortunately some of the liars are brilliant at posing as nice people. Some of the small/first time breeders have some good quality stuff, but it's often very difficult to know. Hehe, that's life I suppose, it's the same in any circle of people or any hobby.
sdaji,- and if they had kept the most agro foxes over time, probaly the same time some docile young would be produced as well, induviduality is what its called and an ability to realise that we are not a threat. This over 24 years is inevitable in an animal as inteligent as a fox.
A python on the other hand is far more primative than a fox. A fox can show emotion and act accordingly wereas a python in my opinion acts purely on instinct, a big difference. IMO to even hint that sort of claim in pythons, if it was possible at all, we would be talking many many many generations of in-breeding which has not been done here.
A python on the other hand is far more primative than a fox. A fox can show emotion and act accordingly wereas a python in my opinion acts purely on instinct, a big difference. IMO to even hint that sort of claim in pythons, if it was possible at all, we would be talking many many many generations of in-breeding which has not been done here.
Rob, that's just plain absurd. It's like saying that all snakes will eventually turn blue because we'd think they were prettier. Go and read up on the subject before spouting such nonsense. The change in behaviour is undeniably heritable, it is genetic, it was bred for. The exact same principle has been used on other animals and there is absolutely no reason to think it couldn't be used on reptiles; it would be very silly to suggest this. This same type of study has been carried out many times, often with controls. I'm really flogging a proverbial dead horse explaining this, but in these controlled experiments, animals are selected at random from a wild population. All behave as wild animals. This sample is divided into two. One group is selectively bred, as with the fox example, the other group is bred at random. Both groups are treated identically in every way other than the way in which the breeders are selected. The selected lines change in behaviour, the random lines do not. Experiments along these lines (and others of different designs, which prove the same thing) have been carried out since way back when, on a range of species of a range of intelligence levels. There may have been a control group with the foxes, or perhaps not, but anyone with a tiny bit of a clue on the subject knows that the control in that case would be a waste of time. Anyone with experience in the area knows that simply breeding animals over successive generations won't change them directionally, if they're selected at random - after the first generation of captive breeding, you basically have what you're going to get, until you start selecting from a genetically variable sample. This is not heresay or speculation, as is your opinion, it is what has been demonstrated clearly by many people over a long period of time.
peterjohnson64
Very Well-Known Member
Hi Sdaji, I guess I am trying to understand how to put this to context with with reptiles. I have a mate with two Childrens pythons. One is a snappy little buggar but the other is quite timid (I know I lost it last time with that word - timid). A breeder would need to know these characteristics of his young if he was to breed for temnperament.
I am expecting that a person trying to breed for temperament would want to hold on to their young for quite a while to find out those that are snappy and those that aren't . (does this happen?) they would keep the ones that aren't snappy and use those to breed.
Is this right? If so, then that sounds great. But, I can't see anyone line breeding like that. They will keep breeeding from the parents surely?? And then, as you say, they sell the snappy ones to the pet owners. Thanks guys. Now I know why my python bites!!!!
So now we come back to TrueBlue. He doesn't care about snappyness from what I gather but more about colour (sorry if I am wrong there - I am merely reading this thread) so he may not be breading timid snakes but will be more willing to sell offspring that are less likely to bite.
Wow, this is a really important thread. I hope I remember to read it tomorrow.
I am expecting that a person trying to breed for temperament would want to hold on to their young for quite a while to find out those that are snappy and those that aren't . (does this happen?) they would keep the ones that aren't snappy and use those to breed.
Is this right? If so, then that sounds great. But, I can't see anyone line breeding like that. They will keep breeeding from the parents surely?? And then, as you say, they sell the snappy ones to the pet owners. Thanks guys. Now I know why my python bites!!!!
So now we come back to TrueBlue. He doesn't care about snappyness from what I gather but more about colour (sorry if I am wrong there - I am merely reading this thread) so he may not be breading timid snakes but will be more willing to sell offspring that are less likely to bite.
Wow, this is a really important thread. I hope I remember to read it tomorrow.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
What exactly were the species that are supposedly being line bred for temperament?
There is nothing wrong with him claiming that he is trying to achieve this, but how does he prove his results?
There is nothing wrong with him claiming that he is trying to achieve this, but how does he prove his results?
JandC_Reptiles
Very Well-Known Member
How can you compare a species of Dog with a Reptile? For starters a dog has a larger brain, learning ability & thought process & has been inbred outbred & crossbred for hundreds of years BEFORE they were taken from the wild for that study. I believe with time captive pythons may get tamer, the same as any domesticated animal bred in captivity and raised with human interaction. However, no matter what the species whether it be a Dog, Cat, Reptile or Bird, they will still remain individuals and you can expect to see the good with the bad regardless of breeding attempts. Its all about human interaction. The same method used in Zoo's for predatory Cats & large Bears. Alot of them are still wild caught animals that have settled into captivity & become timid due to human interaction like feeding & handling. The pups of these tamed foxes you speak of had human interaction since birth, hence their adjustment. When a cat has a litter of kittens in a secluded enviornment away from other animals including humans they become feral. Yet if she has her litter in your home the kittens are mellow and affectionate. The same goes with pretty much every species of animal. It is all to do with human interaction.
Anyway my point was that the phrase "multi generation" is a lose term.
IF you can explain where the WC parentage came into the breeding EG: 4th generation captive bred = the offsprings great great grandparents were wild caught. That is fine use the phrase to refer to its origins. IF you have selective bred your animals for a specific trait such as colour, markings, spots, stripes etc and bred it to a recessive state then that is fine also. But what is the use of claiming multi-gen on a normal fazed animal or an animal that you have no idea of its background or parentage? I see breeders advertising "multi gen" because they bought them from X who bought the parents from Y who bought the parents from Z.
If I was to buy a snake that has been advertised as "multi-gen" than I would like to know WHY they held back previous offspring for future breedings for several generations. I want to know exactly what trait they were aiming for in their breeding attempts if it was not achieved so I could continue the work. And I would like to know how they have come from the beggining...
Anyway my point was that the phrase "multi generation" is a lose term.
IF you can explain where the WC parentage came into the breeding EG: 4th generation captive bred = the offsprings great great grandparents were wild caught. That is fine use the phrase to refer to its origins. IF you have selective bred your animals for a specific trait such as colour, markings, spots, stripes etc and bred it to a recessive state then that is fine also. But what is the use of claiming multi-gen on a normal fazed animal or an animal that you have no idea of its background or parentage? I see breeders advertising "multi gen" because they bought them from X who bought the parents from Y who bought the parents from Z.
If I was to buy a snake that has been advertised as "multi-gen" than I would like to know WHY they held back previous offspring for future breedings for several generations. I want to know exactly what trait they were aiming for in their breeding attempts if it was not achieved so I could continue the work. And I would like to know how they have come from the beggining...
PilbaraPythons said:
SouthernX doesn't make any claims of success on their website, they merely say the following(quoted from their homepage) ''we continually select our breeding stock on the following criteria: colour; pattern; temperament; ease of feeding.''(end of quote) I may be reading to much out of this statement in thinking they breed for temperament? It seemed to me that if they are continuosly selecting breeding stock for temperament(amongst other above mentioned criteria) then they are expecting that the offspring may inherit the same trait. If i have twisted the meaning somehow I extend my apologies to Southern X and those that read this thread. I also cant find mention of breeding for temperament on any of the other major breeders websites so can only assume it was overseas breeders websites that i have read these claims from. I've got nothing else so i'll shut up now.
With my rats I breed for temperment, any bite me and I knock em on the head.
Is this how reptiles are selectively bred for temperment?
I love the mammal v reptile analogy again with theory v practical knowledge being displayed. As we know all mammal theory can be applied to reptiles - cant it?
Is this how reptiles are selectively bred for temperment?
I love the mammal v reptile analogy again with theory v practical knowledge being displayed. As we know all mammal theory can be applied to reptiles - cant it?
What an intresting an amusing thread!
Personally I think cb animals of any species are generally more docile than their wild counterparts, however Id put this down to their social/external enviroment rather than any genetic trait!
Snake behaviour, as with any other creature is 99% instinctive, if it feels threatened, fight or flight instinct comes into play, everytime, you cant breed that out! temprement is simply instinctive i think.
I wonder if a certain person 'who cant be named' can come up with a lobotomy for snakes to make them safer? he could call them, 'temperamoids'! :lol:
Personally I think cb animals of any species are generally more docile than their wild counterparts, however Id put this down to their social/external enviroment rather than any genetic trait!
Snake behaviour, as with any other creature is 99% instinctive, if it feels threatened, fight or flight instinct comes into play, everytime, you cant breed that out! temprement is simply instinctive i think.
I wonder if a certain person 'who cant be named' can come up with a lobotomy for snakes to make them safer? he could call them, 'temperamoids'! :lol:
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
I was always taught that you can easily imprint a mammal but you can not imprint a reptile. As a crude example: Hand raise a crocodile from an egg, love it, cuddle it, hand feed it, for fifty years and it will still probably never, feel grateful, particularly like you, or is unlikely not to consider you or any body else as a potential morsel regardless of how quite or used to you it had become. If you were to release it back into the wild, would it then be reasonable to think that its offspring would act any different?
Hand raises many mammals the same way and then release them and they usually don?t survive as they remain humanly imprinted.
This comparison has little to do with supporting any belief ether way that reptiles can or can?t be bred for temperament, except to the point of highlighting the clear differences that reptiles and mammals have. This obviously brings up the question, If you can modify a reptile behavior in captivity eg : handling a snake and getting it relatively tame, have you now actually altered its genetic trait ? I am not convinced.
Cheers Dave
Stevo
I think we are related
Hand raises many mammals the same way and then release them and they usually don?t survive as they remain humanly imprinted.
This comparison has little to do with supporting any belief ether way that reptiles can or can?t be bred for temperament, except to the point of highlighting the clear differences that reptiles and mammals have. This obviously brings up the question, If you can modify a reptile behavior in captivity eg : handling a snake and getting it relatively tame, have you now actually altered its genetic trait ? I am not convinced.
Cheers Dave
Stevo
I think we are related
Well said JC and pilbara, That to me is the big difference, a reptile is far from anything like a mamal, inteligent and behavoural wise.
Hey sadji, Is southernx paying you to stick up for him.? Cracks me up when you say things like, just because he said this everyone should belive it. Hell alot of what he publily says IMO is absurd, and lacks experiance big time.
Hey sadji, Is southernx paying you to stick up for him.? Cracks me up when you say things like, just because he said this everyone should belive it. Hell alot of what he publily says IMO is absurd, and lacks experiance big time.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
I am still not saying that it isn't possible. I mean if you had genuine quite reptiles ( not behaviour conditioned ) bred with the same. Then why isn't it possiable over time ?
JandC_Reptiles
Very Well-Known Member
Going by the recent APS comp I would have to agree with you TrueBlue. I think some of the answers are absurd.
The last answer "checking a shed snake for retained skin because of a previous mite problem". I am inclined to think that you should check for retained shed regardless of a mite infestation (common sense) and that there is other things that should be looked for under the circumstances, such as retained mites or newly hatched eggs etc...
I also find the answer of "Woma's COMMONLY caudal luring to attract prey" to be a mistake. Tail bobbing due to excitement at feed time maybe. Many species have been observed caudal luring, but it is not a common trait for them.
Or the albino question that nobody answered correctly, yet some members were given more points than others for their efforts in answering in-correctly.
Anyway IMO I think anything & everything to do with this hobby should be taken at face value untill you experience certain circumstances yourself & gain first hand knowledge.
EDIT:
I have nothing personally against Southern x & I think they have stunning animals. But I would't consider their or any other members info as gospel.
The last answer "checking a shed snake for retained skin because of a previous mite problem". I am inclined to think that you should check for retained shed regardless of a mite infestation (common sense) and that there is other things that should be looked for under the circumstances, such as retained mites or newly hatched eggs etc...
I also find the answer of "Woma's COMMONLY caudal luring to attract prey" to be a mistake. Tail bobbing due to excitement at feed time maybe. Many species have been observed caudal luring, but it is not a common trait for them.
Or the albino question that nobody answered correctly, yet some members were given more points than others for their efforts in answering in-correctly.
Anyway IMO I think anything & everything to do with this hobby should be taken at face value untill you experience certain circumstances yourself & gain first hand knowledge.
EDIT:
I have nothing personally against Southern x & I think they have stunning animals. But I would't consider their or any other members info as gospel.
- Status
