Meths, bleach what ever, the use of either one, when a simple blow to the mouth and nostral area in most cases will do the trick, is shocking IMO especially when he publicly promots such a horrible thing. And if he was all that he thinks he is, he should know his animals well enough not to be bitten, simple. But he cant have much faith in his own handling abillitys if he keeps meths on hand, sounds to me like he must get bitten fairly regularly other wise why would he bother keeping it on hand all the time.?
Breeding for temprament?
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Sdaji's views seem to be in the minority here. Not that too many people care about my opinion, but just let me say this:
Sdaji is quite correct in everything he said about genetics.
Temperament is a genetic trait. What's more, it wouldn't surprise me if more than one gene was involved.
Having said that, temperament can certainly be modified by environmental factors, and that can make identifying if an adult animal is genetical aggressive or tractable a bit of a problem.
And, yes, there are major differences between the brains of mammals and reptiles, and their behaviour patterns - but the genetic mechanisms are the same.
And Instar, in responc\se to your contention that fiesty snakes are more likely to survive over placid snakes and are therefore 'fitter', a docile snake may bolt before danger gets close, or just sit an do nothing and not be seen by the predator whereas the aggressive snake that strikes may get the shovel treatment.
Hix
PS: I have three white coats, you can borrow one of mine if you want.
Sdaji is quite correct in everything he said about genetics.
Temperament is a genetic trait. What's more, it wouldn't surprise me if more than one gene was involved.
Having said that, temperament can certainly be modified by environmental factors, and that can make identifying if an adult animal is genetical aggressive or tractable a bit of a problem.
And, yes, there are major differences between the brains of mammals and reptiles, and their behaviour patterns - but the genetic mechanisms are the same.
And Instar, in responc\se to your contention that fiesty snakes are more likely to survive over placid snakes and are therefore 'fitter', a docile snake may bolt before danger gets close, or just sit an do nothing and not be seen by the predator whereas the aggressive snake that strikes may get the shovel treatment.
Hix
PS: I have three white coats, you can borrow one of mine if you want.
olivehydra
Very Well-Known Member
Sdaji could be correct, but I prefer to get the callipers out; phrenology is the only true science :wink:
Temperament is definetly dictated by the distance between a snakes eyes :wink:
Temperament is definetly dictated by the distance between a snakes eyes :wink:
reptililian
Very Well-Known Member
VERY funny!!!!! :lol: :lol:
Rofl Hix, I suppose theres a B side to every theory, not many shovels in the bush though.
In short I beleive a reptile is a reptile, behaves instinctively and as a captive, its behaviour depends a great deal on its treatment, enviroment, hunger etc.
Anyway, show me anyone who alledgedly 'breeds for temprement' and ill show you a customer who if bitten will receive an answer like 'every snake is an individual' !
Yeah right, wheres the results of this careful breeding?
Show me one breeder who claims to 'breed for temprement' who can garantee a snakes temprement!
If you sell a hatchling 'bred for temprement' and the new owner dosent handle it much or isnt confident,
they will still be bitten, so please explain exactly what are the clear results of such alledged selective breeding? Show me results, show me a difference from any old snake not 'bred for temprement' !
Can you say, this snake wont bite, it will lay there like a boiled sausage garanteed? if so whats the bloody point? A snake should behave in a fashion normal for the species, if it dosent, something is wrong with it, or its enviroment etc.
nobody will argue with that much surely. If a snake could be bred to be less likely to bite etc you might as well buy a rubber one imo.
In short I beleive a reptile is a reptile, behaves instinctively and as a captive, its behaviour depends a great deal on its treatment, enviroment, hunger etc.
Anyway, show me anyone who alledgedly 'breeds for temprement' and ill show you a customer who if bitten will receive an answer like 'every snake is an individual' !
Yeah right, wheres the results of this careful breeding?
Show me one breeder who claims to 'breed for temprement' who can garantee a snakes temprement!
If you sell a hatchling 'bred for temprement' and the new owner dosent handle it much or isnt confident,
they will still be bitten, so please explain exactly what are the clear results of such alledged selective breeding? Show me results, show me a difference from any old snake not 'bred for temprement' !
Can you say, this snake wont bite, it will lay there like a boiled sausage garanteed? if so whats the bloody point? A snake should behave in a fashion normal for the species, if it dosent, something is wrong with it, or its enviroment etc.
nobody will argue with that much surely. If a snake could be bred to be less likely to bite etc you might as well buy a rubber one imo.
Morelia_Hunter
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Always remember that there is always a scientist out there that can prove another scientists wrong. I have seen many a theory proven wrong by new and updated research. There is only so much money that can be pumped into reptile research. That is why there are so many unemployed zoologists out there. Genetic theories change all the time, the fact is there is too much we dont know about genetics and most people in the world dont care about snake and reptile genetics. I have seen geneticists present their theories in front of their peirs and their theories be destroyed by one good contradicting question. Sure the fox theory might be a good example, but as reptiles have bigger clutches and breed less frequently would make a study of such nature very tedious and financially unviable. This is a very good topic though. I can guarantee you that these so called snakes bred for temperament would revert back to their natural behaviour if they escaped for even a short while. I know of reticulated python breeders who have bred their snakes for many generations and still have problems with their agonistic behaviour!!! Some snakes will always be mean no matter how well they are cared for. In my opinion I dont say that this theory is unplausable, I am just saying that to prove it will take a long time and cost lot of money.
My goodness, this thread is insane. Breeding for a thousand generations won't necessarily acheive anything, those reticulated pythons weren't bred selectively for temperament! This helps kill the other argument (I shouldn't even give it enough credit to call it an argument) that becoming docile is merely an artifact of being in captivity.
For sure scientists get things wrong, but in those cases, it is poorly understood or newly discovered concepts. The concepts being discussed here are so well understood, all scientists agree on them, anyone who becomes familiar with it can clearly see it. The fact that geneticists may argue about the function of telomeres or the role of natural killer cells in the body's prevention of cancer doesn't mean that they are less certain about the basic concepts such as the action of Mendelian genetics or the fact that behaviour has a very heavy genetic influence. This isn't one of the cutting edge branches of genetics, this is an old concept which has well and truly been researched until well after the cows have not only come home, raised families and died. Yes, if returned to the wild with sufficient genetic diversity, any species previously bred to be tame will revert to its normal wild state over a few generations, because it is in the wild, with natural selection acting, which will take it back to its natural genetic makeup.
This thread is so silly :lol:
Inny, as Hix said, docile snakes may be better off than nasty snakes, in some cases. This idea is more complex than you suggest. Evolution doesn't always act directionally. Some traits are selected for in a negative frequency dependant way. I'll try to put it in a nut shell with an hypothetical example... A species of bird can eat two types of food. If it has a broader beak it can open one type, if it has a longer beak it can reach into gaps and collect another. If it is intermediate it isn't much good at either and selection has produced a genetic makeup which will throw each individual one way or the other. The trait is genetically determined. When too many individuals have broad beaks, the narrow beaked birds will have more food available per bird, they'll have more babies per bird than the broad beaked ones, their genotypes will be more greatly represented in the next generation, this will continue until the broad beaked birds are rare, then each of them will have more resources, etc etc etc. Neither genotype is lost. There are squillions of real examples of this concept, behavioural and morphological, in a wide range of animals including herps, which are well known, well studied and not in dispute. This is only one of many ways in which genetic diversity is preserved. If animals are brought into captivity and subjected to artificial selection, or if wild conditions facilitate it, one or more 'genotypes' (here I speak conceptually and colloquially) may become extinct.
Oh, Olive, the distance between the eyes is a quantitative trait with a genetic component, so it can be selected for!
Looks like you have to agree with me after all!
Whether or not you should listen to sellers' claims is another story. I don't believe there are many people at all anywhere in the world who have properly selected for temperament in snakes and agree that such claims should be taken with caution. Whether it can be done and whether it has been done in those particular cases are two very different issues, which should never be confused. Please don't mistake what I'm saying for supporting any of those claims, if it is still unclear, I don't suggest that anyone takes ads' claims at face value.
Hix: wow, someone agrees with me... freaky. By the way, I think we can be dead certain that more than one gene is involved in snake temperament Obviously environmental influences are important, nature vs nurture and all that jazz.
It is probably important to somewhere in this thread point out that selective breeding, if it is to be done properly, is not merely getting two snakes, breeding them, getting the best of those babies, breeding them and so on. Among other things, you need a larger sample size than one or two pairs of founding snakes to get the best results and if a small sample is used, you'll rapidly run out of genetic variation and selection will have no further affect on that line. To explain it fully would require too much time and background knowledge, but the priciples involved with temperament selection are the same as selection for traits we're all familiar with, such as pretty yellow colours in jungle carpets.
For sure scientists get things wrong, but in those cases, it is poorly understood or newly discovered concepts. The concepts being discussed here are so well understood, all scientists agree on them, anyone who becomes familiar with it can clearly see it. The fact that geneticists may argue about the function of telomeres or the role of natural killer cells in the body's prevention of cancer doesn't mean that they are less certain about the basic concepts such as the action of Mendelian genetics or the fact that behaviour has a very heavy genetic influence. This isn't one of the cutting edge branches of genetics, this is an old concept which has well and truly been researched until well after the cows have not only come home, raised families and died. Yes, if returned to the wild with sufficient genetic diversity, any species previously bred to be tame will revert to its normal wild state over a few generations, because it is in the wild, with natural selection acting, which will take it back to its natural genetic makeup.
This thread is so silly :lol:
Inny, as Hix said, docile snakes may be better off than nasty snakes, in some cases. This idea is more complex than you suggest. Evolution doesn't always act directionally. Some traits are selected for in a negative frequency dependant way. I'll try to put it in a nut shell with an hypothetical example... A species of bird can eat two types of food. If it has a broader beak it can open one type, if it has a longer beak it can reach into gaps and collect another. If it is intermediate it isn't much good at either and selection has produced a genetic makeup which will throw each individual one way or the other. The trait is genetically determined. When too many individuals have broad beaks, the narrow beaked birds will have more food available per bird, they'll have more babies per bird than the broad beaked ones, their genotypes will be more greatly represented in the next generation, this will continue until the broad beaked birds are rare, then each of them will have more resources, etc etc etc. Neither genotype is lost. There are squillions of real examples of this concept, behavioural and morphological, in a wide range of animals including herps, which are well known, well studied and not in dispute. This is only one of many ways in which genetic diversity is preserved. If animals are brought into captivity and subjected to artificial selection, or if wild conditions facilitate it, one or more 'genotypes' (here I speak conceptually and colloquially) may become extinct.
Oh, Olive, the distance between the eyes is a quantitative trait with a genetic component, so it can be selected for!
Looks like you have to agree with me after all!
Whether or not you should listen to sellers' claims is another story. I don't believe there are many people at all anywhere in the world who have properly selected for temperament in snakes and agree that such claims should be taken with caution. Whether it can be done and whether it has been done in those particular cases are two very different issues, which should never be confused. Please don't mistake what I'm saying for supporting any of those claims, if it is still unclear, I don't suggest that anyone takes ads' claims at face value.
Hix: wow, someone agrees with me... freaky. By the way, I think we can be dead certain that more than one gene is involved in snake temperament
Obviously environmental influences are important, nature vs nurture and all that jazz.It is probably important to somewhere in this thread point out that selective breeding, if it is to be done properly, is not merely getting two snakes, breeding them, getting the best of those babies, breeding them and so on. Among other things, you need a larger sample size than one or two pairs of founding snakes to get the best results and if a small sample is used, you'll rapidly run out of genetic variation and selection will have no further affect on that line. To explain it fully would require too much time and background knowledge, but the priciples involved with temperament selection are the same as selection for traits we're all familiar with, such as pretty yellow colours in jungle carpets.
Sdaji,
You still haven't put forward your protocol for selecting your water pythons from which you bred. How many animals did you select your breeders from? What specific traits did you look for? How many generations have you been selectively breeding these aniamls for temprament?
You still haven't put forward your protocol for selecting your water pythons from which you bred. How many animals did you select your breeders from? What specific traits did you look for? How many generations have you been selectively breeding these aniamls for temprament?
I don't think it's silly at all, if nothing else it's served as a good warning to newbies who might get sucked in by such false or misleading claims.
I have never made any claims about my own selective breeding for temperament in any species of snake. I certainly don't plan to start in this thread.
Having some value doesn't mean it isn't silly overall, but yes, it may have served some purpose... maybe... sort of...
Having some value doesn't mean it isn't silly overall, but yes, it may have served some purpose... maybe... sort of...
Morelia_Hunter
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It always does get silly when inferior people try to argue with informed intelectual people about something they know nothing about! Guess that is the difference between herpetologists and geneticists!
africancichlidau
Almost Legendary
Indeed MH, it's lucky there are no scientists here eh?
Morelia_Hunter
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Yeh! What would scientists know in any case. Its just a way to waste your parents money and get nowhere in life fast. Guess thats why we all just keep them and not worry about the science behind it. Definately no scientists here mate! All just blue collar workers.
toxinologist
Active Member
Hi all,
A mate of mine has recently bred his 16th generation of coastal taipans - all specifically selected for temperament - these placid little guys are great and are completely anthropomorphicised and GUARANTEED to give you years of reciprocal love, trust and respect. One or two may be a little skittish at first however, but just keep a spray bottle of meths handy to give them a little whiff if they should happen to bite once or twice in the first few days...
WAKE UP TO YOURSELVES PEOPLE!!! :twisted:
Second year university genetics classes are great for teaching ELEMENTARY GENERAL concepts, but anyone who thinks they can remove inate behavioural responses through a couple of generations of selective mutation needs to have a trip of their own to the unmentionable one's lobotomy table. It is just reality that reptiles possess inate behavioural responses that are designed to help them survive past Day 1. Reptile keepers who think that their pet snakes should be born without these non-endearing qualities shouldn't be keeping snakes in the first place - if you want a cute, cuddly pet - buy a kitten! :roll:
Comparing fox brains to reptile brains is like comparing the brains of GWB and Mother Theresa FCS! :shock:
Now if anyone is interested in those cute, cuddly little taipans ...
David Williams
A mate of mine has recently bred his 16th generation of coastal taipans - all specifically selected for temperament - these placid little guys are great and are completely anthropomorphicised and GUARANTEED to give you years of reciprocal love, trust and respect. One or two may be a little skittish at first however, but just keep a spray bottle of meths handy to give them a little whiff if they should happen to bite once or twice in the first few days...
WAKE UP TO YOURSELVES PEOPLE!!! :twisted:
Second year university genetics classes are great for teaching ELEMENTARY GENERAL concepts, but anyone who thinks they can remove inate behavioural responses through a couple of generations of selective mutation needs to have a trip of their own to the unmentionable one's lobotomy table. It is just reality that reptiles possess inate behavioural responses that are designed to help them survive past Day 1. Reptile keepers who think that their pet snakes should be born without these non-endearing qualities shouldn't be keeping snakes in the first place - if you want a cute, cuddly pet - buy a kitten! :roll:
Comparing fox brains to reptile brains is like comparing the brains of GWB and Mother Theresa FCS! :shock:
Now if anyone is interested in those cute, cuddly little taipans ...
David Williams
Greebo
Snakologist
Thanks for all the replies/theories. I don't think this thread is silly at all. (Especially compared to some of the waffle that has been posted lately).
Sure, some peoples theories are more speculation that are science but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Special thanks to Sdaji and his articulate posts. You have shown me that a fox can be domesticated but I am still not convinced that snakes can be bred for temprament.
I wanted peoples opinions on this subject, I now have plenty of food for thought. Thanks again.
Sure, some peoples theories are more speculation that are science but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Special thanks to Sdaji and his articulate posts. You have shown me that a fox can be domesticated but I am still not convinced that snakes can be bred for temprament.
I wanted peoples opinions on this subject, I now have plenty of food for thought. Thanks again.
reptililian
Very Well-Known Member
Sdaji, Trueblue and David, nice save of what could have been a VERY volatile thread! I have found the whole discussion to be very interesting. Like Greebo said, food for thought.
David, I am as guilty as all get out for anthropomorphising and talking about my gang as if they ARE cute cuddly little kittens. But almost every time that I've been bitten I've been able to reflect and see exactly where it was I went wrong to cause or allow it to happen. And then I feel guilty for putting the snake through that! You're right, it's simply the nature of the beast!
David, I am as guilty as all get out for anthropomorphising and talking about my gang as if they ARE cute cuddly little kittens. But almost every time that I've been bitten I've been able to reflect and see exactly where it was I went wrong to cause or allow it to happen. And then I feel guilty for putting the snake through that! You're right, it's simply the nature of the beast!
chameleon
Active Member
as far as im concerned....
a snake is a snake..
simple.
breeding for temprament???
ummm..........NO!
a snake is a snake..
simple.
breeding for temprament???
ummm..........NO!
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