NSW DECCW Code of Practice...

[Laghairt]

On the topic of underground keepers, it occurred to me the other day that it would be extremely easy to purchase reptiles under an assumed identity. Please note that I am not condoning this behavior in any way, I'm just pointing out how easy it would be for someone to purchase reptiles without a license.

Consider this scenario:

Little Johnny wants a GTP but has never held a reptile license. In NSW Johnny would need a R2 license that takes at least two years to get. Johnny decides he doesn't want to wait this long so obtains the license details of an unknowing third party (through any number of means) and provides these to the seller upon purchasing the GTP (in cash) and then disappears never to be seen again. The seller is none the wiser and is just happy to have made a seemingly legitimate sale.

I'm sure I'm not the first person who has realised how easy this would be to do. I think there is a limit to how much regulation the DECCW can burden keepers with before this kind of thing becomes extremely common.

It does achieve something - I see this as no more than a tool the DECC want to use to negate the criticism and disapproval from welfare groups regarding the possibility of reptiles being sold in NSW pet stores.

fair point.

 

[Australis]

anouc, i have to disagree with you on your point about difficulty enforcing and investigating. I think it would be childs play to target keepers most likely to be breaching any new minimal cage size regulations. With no need to visit keepers with only a handful of species written into their books, simply go straight to keepers with 50+ animals, particularly those keeping species that require the largest cages.

 

[Laghairt]

Agreed, but the majority of keepers out there will never be subjected to an inspection.

anouc, i have to disagree with you on your point about difficulty enforcing and investigating. I think it would be childs play to target keepers most likely to be breaching any new minimal cage size regulations. With no need to visit keepers with only a handful of species written into their books, simply go straight to keepers with 50+ animals, particularly those keeping species that require the largest cages.

 

[Waterrat]

Anouc, I don't think it would be so easy for little Johnny. I recently sold two snakes to a person who provided me with his licence number, address and all that's required. I receved a phone call from QPWS informing me that this person's licence expired two years ago and that is my responsibility to ensure the buyers licence is valid, etc.. From now on, I ask every buyer to email / fax me a copy of their licence. Little Johnny would have to do the same and it may not be so easy to falsify the licence itself.

 

[saximus]

But you are responsible Waterrat. There are plenty of people who are just happy for a scrap piece of paper with the relevant details on it. I've even offered to show my licence before and been told "No don't bother just jot the info down for me"

 

[murrayanddig]

so there are 100's of known environmental weeds legally sold in nurseries then dumped in reserves to destroy remaining native vegetation (weeds being, i think the second biggest threat to our biodiversity). and my neighbours cat can without a permit come over and eat the native birds and lizards from my backyard. and still governments are expending resources on restricting people who would like to keep, appreciate and learn about our native fauna.

that sucks.

 

[Laghairt]

Well I think the fact the person you were talking about successfully purchased snakes without a valid license and that you only found out after the fact lends weight to my argument. Obviously you are quite careful about who you sell to but there are plenty of people out there that aren't. I don't know what QLD licenses look like but in NSW it would be child's play to falsify a license. In addition, NSW keepers only send their books in once a year so any anomalies may not be noticed for over 12 months.

In any case, little Johnny could make up a license number, name and address and most sellers would be none the wiser. By the time anyone realised there had been an illegal transaction it would be too late. There are plenty of members on this site that display their license numbers for all to see so using that format it would be a piece of cake.

 

[Waterrat]

I suppose you're right. I hate to ask people for copies of their licences but that's one way I cover my back. If someone gives me a false document, I can produce that as an evidence that I have done all I could and rest is up to the authorities to run with it.

 

[CodeRed]

last year I purchased a snake and the seller gave me a fake last name. He obviously didnt expect me to ask around about him lol. the license number was probably fake too

 

[FAY]

You need to sight the licence. The expiry date on the licence is the most important thing. If you deal with a lot of people selling animals like we do, you do have an idea if the licence number is made up. Especially if they say they have just got it.....by the sequence of the numbers.

 

[ShaunMorelia]

But what exactly is the problem with enclosure sizes????
The sizes seem reasonable to me
People who use tubs etc might want to complain but most PET owners would not
Maybe this will slow down the people who just want lots of slitherers but have neither the time or inclination to treat them as pets??
.
.
Uh Oh
{I better hide for a while after that statement I suppose}
..

The current "guideline" sizes are fine IMO.
Its the fact that in 5 years the floor area will be more than double the current and will be enforcable as a minimum.

So if I wanted to keep 1 adult morelia that doesn't grow longer than 2.5m, to comply with the 5 year increase, I would need the floor space area of 1.52sqm. (sqm = square meters)
Altho it does say for "climbing species" that, that area can either be floor area or back wall area.
That said I can have any Morelia spilota ssp that only grows to maximum of 2.5m. in a box that is 1.2H x 1.3W x 0.6D and comply with the future increase.

Another thing of worry is that they will class any reptile that is 12mths or over as an adult and will have to be housed like an adult. (keeping in mind the above measurements)
I have a couple of yearlings that are lucky to push 60-70cm, so housing them in adult sized enclosres wouldn't be beneficial for their future IMO.

 

[AUSHERP]

legislation like this will just crush the hobby, not many people have space like that. across 100 snakes you're gonna need a mansion of a reptile room.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Another thing of worry is that they will class any reptile that is 12mths or over as an adult and will have to be housed like an adult. (keeping in mind the above measurements)
I have a couple of yearlings that are lucky to push 60-70cm, so housing them in adult sized enclosres wouldn't be beneficial for their future IMO.

That's 12 months for snakes - it's six months to adult size for lizards, which is patently absurd for most pet species. This has been designed by clerks... for clerks... not for reptiles or their keepers.

J

 

[Radar]

I wonder how much longer it is before this pushes into other states? This is not a well thought out change over at all.

 

[hornet]

That's 12 months for snakes - it's six months to adult size for lizards, which is patently absurd for most pet species. This has been designed by clerks... for clerks... not for reptiles or their keepers.

J

6months for lizards? Yes some species will be pretty close to adult by then but the more commonly kept species still have alot of growing to do at a year of age

 

[Australis]

longqi,

Judging from your own photos i highly doubt all enclosures would comply,your retics for example. practice what you preach/spam.

 

[Waterrat]

Longqui, I am not having a go at you but 60x50x30 for an adult chondro is pretty small, in fact, it's very small in my opinion. How can they assume their natural ambush position in a 30cm high enclosure without licking the floor of the cage?

 

[ShaunMorelia]

Chondros are 60x50x30 minimum with most being larger

Im taking 60x50 being the floor dimensions.
That would give you a floor area of 0.3sqm, which is better than the 0.225sqm current "guideline".

Once these sizes are to change, you will need to meet a floor area or back wall area of 0.563sqm.
And sir, your enclosures would not meet the enforecable requirements that they intend to impose.

 

[Waterrat]

I didn't know Qld has Regs pertaining to cage sizes. Can you post a link?

 

[ShaunMorelia]

Hi Waterrat
I said that was the minimum size of the display enclosures
We use them for smaller chondros up to about 2 years old
The adults are housed minimum 1.6x80x40 and even larger for Biaks because they can reach 2metres+

Exactly our point, they are calling 12mth old snakes adults and have to be housed in adult sized enclosures. Not all animals that are that age would be suited to be housed in an enclosure that big.