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Enclosure sizes are only part of the problem with this Code. It's the enforcement aspect which causes us significant problems. Until evidence of widespread cruelty is produced, there is no need for the Code to be enforceable in law. Even then, there are already legal avenues available to the deprtament to enable it to pursue keepers through the courts, without adding yet another bureaucratic burdon to keepers in NSW.

If a problem doesn't already exist, they should not be introducing laws preemptively. The whole document is based on the personal sentiments of a few bureaucrats in DECCW and DII. It has not been built around experience or science.
 
Seems DECC have WAY to much time on their hands! tell them to find something better to do with it, leave us keepers alone! They seem like a bunch of inexperienced paper pushing ****ers! If they are not willing to listen to the very experienced and appointed panel, from all walks of the hobby, they need to get their priorities straight and ask themselves what is the true agenda here? I think they're board with nothing better to do, over staffed, over paid and looking for something to amuse themselves with. Seems to me they're the ones doing something wrong in all this... their jobs!
 
Thanks very much for all your hard work with this J.
We should ALL appreciate what you and others are doing for our rights as keepers.
Please let us know how we can help.
 
We ask that all keepers in NSW email the Department at [email protected] and insist that those involved in developing and implementing the Code of Practice make themselves available to meet with us - their own appointed expert advisory group. The fact that they have yet again avoided any arrangement to discuss our concerns by allowing only written submissions is entirely unsatisfactory. Written submissions will disappear into the bureaucratic maw, be examined by the individuals at the Dept of Primary Industry (who are driving this, and who insist that enforceability in law is essential), and the outcome for keepers will be the same as they propose at this time.

Respondents should also insist that DECCW release, on the DECCW website, a copy of the Code in its current form. They have refused to release electronic copies because they are easy to circulate widely, and it suits them to allow a degree of confusion in the keeping community. This Code will impact thousands of keepers in NSW, and the EAG believes it will serve no practical purpose in improving the welfare of captive reptiles in NSW.

Ask the Department to produce evidence of widespread problems with reptile welfare in NSW, and if the Department cannot do this, ask why a code, enshrined in law, is needed for a 'problem' which doesn't exist.

The appointment of the Expert Advisory Group was simply an exercise in window dressing for DECCW. They, and their masters at DII, clearly had a very firm view of the outcome they wanted, even before we met for the first time. This has been made evident from documents we obtained under FOI. We were mislead into believeing that we were contributing to a transparent and collaborative process which would benefit the welfare of captive reptiles in NSW. It has not turned out like that at all. At every meeting, and in every conversation, the EAG was unanimous in its insistence that the Code be based around recommendations, rather than enforceable standards, and it seemed to us that DECCW understood and accepted the good sense in this. However, the DII submission to DECCW condemned DECCW for wording the Code ambiguously, and was insistent that enforceability in the courts was THE primary consideration.

All this debate could be avoided if DECCW operatives agree to meet with us across the table. It is very evident that they don't want scrutiny of the Code itself - they have not released any electronic copies which would be easy to circulate widely, and they especially do not want us to question the motivation behind the development of the Code itself, because it is based on the personal viewpoints of the individuals in DECCW and DII.

Bureaucratic interference in the lives of fauna keepers in Australia is taken for granted by keepers in all states. It is just a way of life in this country, and it is always portrayed as necessary for conservation. It seems to escape the notice of the various state bodies that, despite them doing business in the same ways they were in the 1960s and 1970s, the conservation status of a huge number of species lurches towards critical... There is a conveyor belt to extinction (to use the phrase of a good friend of mine) happening out there, and we have a 'conservation' Department here in NSW spending who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars, on a problem they can't even prove exists. And it has nothing to do with conservation.

J
 
Fight

Fight people Fight. Get off your A...ssses and put up an intelligent fight. Don't lay back and hope someone else will do it.

Cheers
Sandee :)
 
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Could someone please send me the link for the Legislation. i Cannot find it and haven't been bothered to read through all of the pages of the thread,

Thanks, Harrison :)
 
Umm that's kinda been the point of the whole thread. We don't have access to the proposed legislation and if it is approved it will be enforced before we even get to see it
 
certain people on this site have been recently emailed a draft of the proposed rules its hard to take a stand when most of us havent read anything besides the cover page of the email that has been sent
 
Here's a copy of my email

To whom it may concern,

The current proposed code regarding the keeping of reptiles goes much further than in any other jurisdiction in the world in terms of detail and scope. This a brave and bold step on the part of DECCW. However it is widely circulated within the reptile keeping fraternity that the process of development and the current draft is considered flawed in many ways. This is something that concerns me greatly. In order to gain the trust and support of the ever increasing number of hobbyists it would in my opinion, be prudent for the department to re-initiate contact and discussions with the expert panel. It is clear from the acedemic qualifications that most of them hold, and their knowledge of the subject that they are the experts and without their input any code will lack credibility. Also it would serve DECCW well to uphold the principles of NSW government by being transparent and publish on the internet the current version of the draft.

yours sincerely
 
Nice Bob thanks. I think having an example like that will help the slightly less articulate among us to put forward their opinions where before they may have been unsure how to.

certain people on this site have been recently emailed a draft of the proposed rules its hard to take a stand when most of us havent read anything besides the cover page of the email that has been sent
I thought there were no electronic copies of the code because electronic copies can be circulated too easily. Jamie posted the pdf he received via email requesting more submissions about the new code but that contained none of the body of the code. If you specifically know someone that does have a copy I'd love for them to post it so we can have a read
 
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A group obtained it under FOI and now DECCW is saying they dont need to update the code on their website because it is in the 'public domain'. I guess to circulate it widely through our (ie keepers) channels would then be playing into this.....

Jamie has made the main issues clear -agreed points have been thrown out, and the code will result in most keepers being unable to maintain captive keeping as we currently know it.

The fact that we (collectively) dont have the facts basically sums it up!!
 
Just sent this off....

To Whom It May Concern,

I would like to express my disappointment that DECCW has at this point in time been unwilling to make themselves available to meet with the Expert Advisory Group(EAG) that was appointed to assist with the drafting of the code of conduct. One can only assume that the EAG was only formulated to make it appear that input was being sought after when in actual fact the DECCW was always going to push it's own agenda or that of other Government Depts and/or welfare groups. I find it ludicrous that the DECCW is going to totally ignore many, many collective years of experience and expertise in herpetology and develop a mandatory code based on the agendas of welfare groups instead of a code based on science and the welfare of reptiles as advised by the EAG.
I would also ask that the DECCW provide a copy of the code in it's current form on the DECCW website so the reptile keeping community can view it and convey in writing any concerns they may have with the new code.
I would also like to ask on what grounds the DECCW has sought to change the code when there is very little evidence of any related cases where DECCW has had to intervene due to reptiles being kept in enclosures that are deemed to be too small and put the reptiles welfare at risk. It would give much more creditability to DECCW's agenda to regulate mandatory enclosure sizes if it were to provide some statistics of relevant cases where intervention was necessary.

Yours faithfully

Might fire a letter off to the local member as well.... although I don't think she will be there long enough to read it lol
 
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Nice Bob thanks. I think having an example like that will help the slightly less articulate among us to put forward their opinions where before they may have been unsure how to.


I thought there were no electronic copies of the code because electronic copies can be circulated too easily. Jamie posted the pdf he received via email requesting more submissions about the new code but that contained none of the body of the code. If you specifically know someone that does have a copy I'd love for them to post it so we can have a read


I have the new draft from animal welfare id asume seems they just spent so long re doing their standards the decc would follow the same standards
i could be wrong though
maybe NPWS have gone out on their own little tangent trying to better the world but i doubt any charge would hold up in court if you didnt follow their standards but you met the standard for animal welfare
and the draft they sent me didnt seem unreasonable at all

and what is the point of updating their code if they arent going to let anyone see what it is??
 
I have the new draft from animal welfare id asume seems they just spent so long re doing their standards the decc would follow the same standards
i could be wrong though
maybe NPWS have gone out on their own little tangent trying to better the world but i doubt any charge would hold up in court if you didnt follow their standards but you met the standard for animal welfare
and the draft they sent me didnt seem unreasonable at all

and what is the point of updating their code if they arent going to let anyone see what it is??

Pretty sure I posted the last draft up earlier in this thread but will put it up again.

I'm pretty sure they are only keeping it under tabs at the moment as it is not yet passed and they don't want it scrutinised until they get it passed. It will more than likely be freely available.

Some of it seems very reasonable but other parts are just outrageous. I am looking at getting back into Ridge Tailed Monitors and have a 6x2x2 tank. I would only be able to keep 2 in that sized enclosure according to these mandatory regulations.
 

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Buck I suggested that this was the new code (assuming this is the same as the one on page 1 of this thread?) and someone on here said that's no longer the current one...
 
well here are the standards for lizards i was sent just a few weeks ago

lizardstandards.png



for a lizard which includes monitors i dont think thats at all unreasonable
 
well that would be even worse for something like accies. Say L=40cm, that would mean that no dimension could be less than 80cm which means a 6x2 would even be able to house 1 adult.

Just confirming.... that is for private keepers???? It mentions exhibitors a bit.
 
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