Possible inclusion body diseae (ibd) outbreak

[horsesrule]

As most of you know i purchased a snake that died recently the autopsy showed it was worms that killed it officially however i now believe the snake may have also had IBD.

Is it possible the animal that died had both? Is it possible the vet may have missed the IBD signs whilst completing the autopsy?

The reason i ask is last week i observed one of my pythons not breathing as it should. (this animal was housed in the same room different enclosure) as the animal that died.

I took it to the vet and it was prescribed baytril injections however it is now showing signs of a neurological problem, Including twisting its upper neck around in a spasm like motion with its mouth open.

Its breathing is not getting any better and its now not eating it also is showing signs of mouth rot.

Last night i observed another python different species again in a different enclosure and completely different room breathing with the same noises as the above mentioned one.

I have moved the sick animals out of the house to the garage however i feel that it may be to late.

I am about 99% sure that this is not a simple respiratory condition or illness based on the spasms and mouth rot as well as the fact the animal is not behaving normal.

I have been busy today moving pythons in and out of the house with the best quarantine procedures you can do. All my animals are now all over the place i have moved some to other locations completely away from my house. They have been take to houses where no snakes live.

Whether its to late we will have to wait and see.

I now need to decide whether to start euthanising the sick animals. And having autopsies performed.

If it turns out to be IBD i will be seeking legal advice and will be looiking to pursue this seller for the cost of my entire collection or whatever ends up having to be euthanised. And all medical costs.

In the meantime i suggest anyone considering buying in Melbourne from this seller be very carefull.

Before i proceed i wanted to get feedback from you all.

 

[horsesrule]

As the signs and symptoms usually start within 30 days of infection with this disease it seems most probable that the purchased animal that died had this disease and it has been spread airborne.

 

[bubbaloush]

Mate thats some hard luck if you do have it and hopefully it hasn't infected your entire collection best of luck mate

 

[BROWNS]

Sounds more like OPMV to me and if it came into your collection with the animal you mentioned from the Vic breeder you must have cross contaminated somehow for other animals to be showing signs of illness.I wouldn't wait but would rather take in one of the more seriously affected animals showing the worst symptoms and have it euthanised and tested,even then you won't get a 100% positive result either way but you will have a good idea and as I said having been through this myself it sounds like the dreaded OPMV to me which is running riot throughout the hobby moreso than many ppl think.

Be very careful and keep strict quarantine and cross contamination procedures at their best and see how things go,although it doesn't sound good I hope you don't lose everything and have to go through what many others including myself have.Regarding the seller unless you have 100% proof it came via them it may be hard to establish a case but good luck as anyone selling wc animals possibly sick with disease and knowing about it should be shot imo!!!!I say wc as I recall the animal had worms badly which doesn't often happen at all with captive bred animals...all the best and keep us all updated please!

 

[BROWNS]

I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.

 

[horsesrule]

I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.

Yes there are people who believe its air born and others who disagree.

I personally think if it turns out to be either of these im leaning towards it being air born how else could it have spread from a closed room to another?

We will wait and see.

I dont know whether to finish of 20 days of antibiotic injections on the first or just euthanise it this week.

I think regardless of what disease it is its clear where it came from.

 

[horsesrule]

I'm not sure f IBD or OPMV are air born diseases and think the jury is still out on OPMV anyway,it's a strange disease with a huge varying amount of symptoms from twisting etc as you described and much more right down to nothing having animals that seem fine just drop dead overnight with no prior warning symptoms.

The purchased animal that died appeared healthy however it just dropped down dead but when i found it in the enclosure it was contorted and half upside down.

 

[Aslan]

horsesrule - I am sympathetic for your situation, and exploring legal action should the situation be the worst case possible is definately a possibility...

...in saying that, your own Vet has determined the cause of death to be worms, not IBD. I think that is a hurdle you would fail to overcome should the matter proceed to a civil trial...

...good luck, and I hope all works out...

 

[aussie.snakes]

Don't know if you would be successful claiming damages if it can be shown that you did not quarrintine.

 

[horsesrule]

At this stage im more worried about finding out what is going on and what disease i am dealing with.

I am going to wait till the vet gets back from holidays and ask him about the original autopsy performed.

I am also consulting with a second vet now to get a second oppinion.

Either way apart from getting feedback from others who have been a simmilar sitaution, this also can be used as a warning thread because if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone.

 

[tenacres1100]

hey HR, a breeder told me the other day that if you buy reptiles, one from here, one from there, it's like playing russian roulette, I now understand what he means :shock: bad luck mate I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you. Can the vet test any of the results from the original python or is it to late? disinfect all your cages, hands and clothes, wear throw away rubber gloves when you have to handle them, it all helps

 

[ajwill]

I feel for you - it is a terrible situation.
Did you quarantine, horserule? If so, for how long?

 

[horsesrule]

Yes i quaranteeded i did everything by the book.

The animal that i believe brought whatever it is in was purchased on the 18/10/08 it died on the 30/10/08 so its been just over a month.

This is why i am so concerned about it being IBD.

It usually starts affecting animals after 30 days.

Irrespective of what happens we have made the decision now not to continue with pythons.

After what dies or is euthanised if there is any left we will keep them but that will be it.

Before this happened we were looking at cutting back our collection and concentrating more on other reptiles but now enough is enough.

As i said i have kept reptiles for over 20 years and never had any deaths that were not old age until i bought that python a month or so ago.

Its been a curse.

 

[Dave]

I feel sorry for you
Luckily I've found a breeder thats near me that has all the pythons I want and know his collection is disease free..

 

[MoreliaMatt]

if it is ibd or opmv, whats to say that it hasnt been lying dormant in one of your other snakes and has been passed on from them?

not backing up the seller that sold u the ones with worms at all.....

just wanting to think of all possible avenues?

 

[ajwill]

It's just so terrible - I had never heard of either of these diseases and just googled them. I hope the rest of your collection is okay.

 

[aussie.snakes]

Yes i quaranteeded i did everything by the book.

The animal that i believe brought whatever it is in was purchased on the 18/10/08 it died on the 30/10/08 so its been just over a month.

This is why i am so concerned about it being IBD.

It usually starts affecting animals after 30 days.

Irrespective of what happens we have made the decision now not to continue with pythons.

After what dies or is euthanised if there is any left we will keep them but that will be it.

Before this happened we were looking at cutting back our collection and concentrating more on other reptiles but now enough is enough.

As i said i have kept reptiles for over 20 years and never had any deaths that were not old age until i bought that python a month or so ago.

Its been a curse.

:| but you said you kept them in the same room. That isn't quarantee by the books....

 

[horsesrule]

I mean its possible but not likely

The snake that died after purchase was housed in a room with the snakes thats the most sick however the second snake that is sick has been living in a completely different sealed room.

The door is kept shut 24 hours a day except when we enter.

The probability that its airborne is high.

The probability it came from the snake that died is high.

The other possibility and probability is it came from the replacement snake that turned out to be sick also and was returned to the seller.

On the balance of probabilities it was one of the 2 snakes that entered my care after coming from the seller.

 

[horsesrule]

:| but you said you kept them in the same room. That isn't quarantee by the books....

Correct, i only have space for 1 quarantine room.

Anyway if it turns out to be IBD it wont matter as its most likely transmitted airborne.

The fact 1 of the pythons is showing signs points this way as it was down a different end to the house in a closed room.

Time will tell.

 

[JasonL]

A python in pain or over or under heated will act in a similar way to one with a neuro problem.. not saying this is the case with your snake, just be careful jumping to conclusions before autopsy results come back or other snakes in your collection start showing signs.