Python Personalities???

[hnn17]

bluetongue1: ok mate, look at your quote from lonqi he's saying a guy with lots of letters after his name, then below you're saying something about phd, i take it from that - the guy has a phd as the letters in his name.

the tone of that post i got is that - dismissal of the 'snakes have no emotions' paper, and the more letters they have after their names implies the more they're piling it on. is this what you're trying to convey to readers ?

your post is very well written, obviously you had and appreciate the value of good education, so clarify for me - phd stands for pile higher and deeper, pile what ?

look at lonqi quote, he's using a movie lawyer reverse psychology, the old "i'm just a humble small town lawyer, why believe me instead of these fancy city lawyers with fancy letters after their names', long letters after their names means they're qualified and when they talk about something there's a higher chance that the information is correct.

 

[Crystal..Discus]

What we "feel" from our snakes is personal opinion, because only up until recently there hasn't been much research done in the way of reptiles regarding their bonds with humans. Everything when it comes to loving these animals and being "loved" in return is subjective - there's no right or wrong answer, and probably won't be for some time.

For example; what do you see in this picture? I see one thing, and I guarantee you someone else will see something else completely different.

 

[longqi]

On this one Crystal I tend to disagree just a little bit
[not referring to the photo]
Although scientists may never be able to prove that reptiles do or not have emotions
there are thousands of bits of information that definitely seem to prove that if they are included in a family most will respond in a way that shows love, hate, comfort, curiousity and various degrees of learning etc etc
I deliberately included hate because I have had 2 snakes that simply hated anything to do with human contact and responded accordingly

So scientifically we may never be able to measure reptile emotions but anecdotal evidence certainly points to another direction

 

[Crystal..Discus]

On this one Crystal I tend to disagree just a little bit
[not referring to the photo]
Although scientists may never be able to prove that reptiles do or not have emotions
there are thousands of bits of information that definitely seem to prove that if they are included in a family most will respond in a way that shows love, hate, comfort, curiousity and various degrees of learning etc etc
I deliberately included hate because I have had 2 snakes that simply hated anything to do with human contact and responded accordingly

So scientifically we may never be able to measure reptile emotions but anecdotal evidence certainly points to another direction

That's what I was trying to say, just in a non-confrontational way I agree, the anecdotal evidence does certainly point one way.

 

[Renenet]

I find this a really interesting topic. Humans do have a tendency to bestow human qualities on animals - no argument from me there. (Why is something else that fascinates me.) Nonetheless, just because there's some anthropomorphisation (phew!) going on, doesn't mean there can't be a bond between keeper and reptile.

I have a scientific mind and would like evidence before I came to a firm view. In the meantime, I'm open to the possibility that reptiles can feel something for people. As has been mentioned, it would be difficult to prove. It's enough trouble trying to work out conclusively what another human thinks, let alone a member of another species.

I don't have much to add to the anecdotal evidence, being very new to reptile keeping, but my little stimmie doesn't act she dislikes me. When I had her out this evening she was reaching out towards my face and flicking her tongue. If she was freaked out by me I'd expect her to be turning towards her click-clack, struggling or striking and biting, not exploring my face.

Reptiles have a personality.....they don't like us.

Something I don't understand... if you believe that, why do you keep or want to keep reptiles?

I'm not picking on you, Jannico - others on this forum have the same view, you've just provided a handy example - nor am I trying to get anyone's back up. It's something I've wondered about and I just want to understand the logic.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Deleted - off topic

 

[hnn17]

hey blue, i will stop, as this is turning into back and forth bickering between two people. take it to pm if you feel the need to continue.

people are using their personal experience to come to the conclusion that snakes have emotion/personalities. ok that's fine, sometimes two people experience the same thing or looking at the same scenario will interpret it differently and come to different conclusions. what does it take for one person's reasoning and conclusion to be more plausible than the other person's reasoning and conlusion?

what level of information do people want the other side to produce before they think about changing their minds to the other person's point of view ?

these debates are pretty similar to neighbours' war/disputes. they have two rules; 1. the otherside is always wrong, 2. what ever they come up with see rule 1. (this is a joke dont get offended if your actually in one)

 

[Bluetongue1]

Hi hnn17,

I totally agree that different people can observe identical things and use different terms and come to different conclusions. However, this does not mean the whole behaviour thing is intractable. If that was the case then, for example, police would not bother about taking statements from witnesses at crime scenes. It is about teasing out the objective from the subjective to obtain useable data.

We could have quarantined the discussion to: “Do snakes have emotions?” In which there are only 2 alternatives. Then you could validly talk about what is required to change someone’s view to the other side. However, this has not been the case. If I were asked me to re-write the heading for this thread, it would have to be: “To what degree do pythons exhibit personality?” This would reflect the full spectrum of opinions that have been expressed – from zero to full on. But even this is an oversimplification. What we have been doing is to look at the full range of behaviours that these snakes (and other reptiles) display, a great many of which have previously been dismissed out-of-hand as subjective and inaccurate or mere coincidence or simply not possible. Rational reasons for these behaviours have been suggested and discussed, as well.

What we do find when we look at the bigger picture is that science is becoming more aware of the cognitive complexities and activities of the lower vertebrate groups. Old wives tales and traditionally held views haven’t helped progress in this respect. The power of popular beliefs and myths should not be underestimated. Like the “three second memory of a goldfish” myth. I have had people who keep goldfish ask me if it is true. `I simply ask them what their fish do when they see you get their food ready and when was the previous time you fed them? Unfortunately we have had the same blanket limit placed on reptile behaviours as innate, instinctive, all pre-programmed and that’s it.

What this thread should clearly illustrate is… that is NOT it!


Blue

PS hnn17 I deleted what I could but the “modify” option is removed automatically when someone adds a “like”, so had to leave a couple.