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i agree with you on a questionaire when you fill out your licence application so you have to do the research yourself that way the information gets stuck in your head alot easier. i would say no to a course only for the fact that i am up at 5.00 am and home at 6.30 pm 6 days a week and what of the people living at great distances from cities but having said this i have learned alot from books and the great people on this site for which i am appreciative of
 
Its been touched on Hix but not much...granted.

Also you say :" Its been suggested that there may be more people without licences keeping reptiles then there are licenced keepers." two words...Suggested...May. Not.....Confirmed...Is.
Sorry...not a good argument.

It might not be the best argument, because of a lack of imperical data (and it would be hard to get), but if you think the authorities would ignore this because we haven't got solid numbers, then you're mistaken.

It is widely known that there is a very large number of unlicensed reptile holders (in NSW at least), and the authorities will not be doing anything that will add to that number.

:p

Hix
 
In the ACT, recreational reptile keepers are only allowed a choice of a few species as their first pet, and all of them are licence exempt in the ACT... only blue tongues, beardies shinglebacks and one type of turtle can bee kept on a 'class A' license for 2 years, with the purchase reciept from their first lizard being the proof of start date.....
I found this out after going to my favourite reptile shop in Canberra the other day, and can i say i am glad I dont live in the ACT.... I am sure they would love to have access to a national licensing system, or even a minor husbandry course that would allow them to obtain a wider range earlier on. however having said that, there are some species in some states that arent allowed to be kept by hobbyists at all. even on the highest license class in the ACT, ony a few species of python can be kept. i guess they would have some sort of reason for this, so would a national type license become more confusing because of this?
(genuine question guys, i dont know why the species allowed are limited some places, and would love to know if anyone has any idea)

but back on topic, had there been a course made available when i applied for my license, i would have done it, it would have taken no more of my time than all the research i did on the net, and reading anything i could get my hands on about keeping reptiles.

great idea in theory, but i doubt the authorities will ever make the effort.....
 
It might not be the best argument, because of a lack of imperical data (and it would be hard to get), but if you think the authorities would ignore this because we haven't got solid numbers, then you're mistaken.

It is widely known that there is a very large number of unlicensed reptile holders (in NSW at least), and the authorities will not be doing anything that will add to that number.

:p

Hix

Widely known....but is it true?
I remember a similiar argument and they convinced many about the truth of it all regarding weapons of mass destruction..........:rolleyes:
If something is widely known but their is no evidence to back it up......Mmmmmm......that does not automatically make it a truth.
Im sure the 'authorities' (which are actually us! Now theirs a weird concept) as they have in the past will work from fear....why would that change!
 
Are you trying to have an argument about this!

It is widely known, there are hundreds of individuals un-licensed in NSW, many of these people have extensive collections of exotic reptiles. There is barely a week that goes by that i'm not offered any. On top of this numerous kids collect reptiles from the wild and keep them as they don't know any better or don't have sufficient $ to get started.

We receive at our reptile unit donations of unlicensed animals from unlicensed keepers all the time.

So earthling should have an amnesty so we can get the stats you desire? Would this be the best thing?






Widely known....but is it true?
I remember a similiar argument and they convinced many about the truth of it all regarding weapons of mass destruction..........:rolleyes:
If something is widely known but their is no evidence to back it up......Mmmmmm......that does not automatically make it a truth.
Im sure the 'authorities' (which are actually us! Now theirs a weird concept) as they have in the past will work from fear....why would that change!
 
The problem with an amnesty is your data set will be skewed towards those that are prepared to hand their animals over.

But it may give an indication of the size of the problem.

:p

Hix
 
And this is where the trouble starts.For everyone stating that some sort of testing be adopted then what is going to happen if you disagree with correct handling practises that this course/test might promote?
As I was saying, it isn't a PhD in herpetology, it is simply something to get the brain thinking about what is best for their reptile. Theres no pass or fail, right or wrong. I imagine it having sections for different animals (snakes/skinks/dragons/monitors/turtles/frogs), and covering all necessary aspects of basic husbandry.

For example, it isn't going to say "you must only ever use this kind of substrate! all other substrates are dangerous for your snake."
It will say "Your snake needs a substrate for their tank. There is a wide variety of substrates you can choose from, and we have listed some for you below" and then have a list saying Newspaper, marine carpet, etc and maybe a little something about why they are good - ease of cleaning, better traction for the snakes, whatever. The reason for this is so that when they go into the pet store they can think about why the substrate they are choosing will be best for them and their reptile.
It can also have a glossary of terms at the back, so that people can understand what words like "substrate" mean.

Every reptile setup requires an enclosure, water bowl, hide, and substrate. It would also cover different heating techniques and the use of a thermostat to control temperatures. It would explain why it needs all of these things.

It could also be used to turn people off buying the "cooler" animals until they have more experience. For example owning a monitor or a frilly would be neat but they might not be prepared to build an enclosure in their back yard, so they could decide to start of with a couple of beardys instead. Not that I want to deter anyone from owning reptiles, but if you don't have the space to own one then you shouldn't get one.

For everyone that thinks keeping snakes in pairs or more is correct procedure,what will you have to say when guidelines would promote keeping snakes singly (with a few exceptions) except when breeding ?
It could say something along the lines of "It is recommended that all snakes be kept in their own enclosures, but it is common practice to pair two of the same type of snakes together. Make sure you do your research before pairing, because some snakes, such as the blackheaded python, eat other snakes!"

Something like that anyway. Yes I do know that some people pair different kinds of snakes, and when they are young that is fine, but when they reach sexual maturity, well, thats where hybrids come from..
.
After all the intent of this idea is for the good of the animals,trouble is when experienced keepers point out the correct and accepted way to keep reptiles a lot of others with limited experience wont hear a word of it.That being the case what hope would there be for people taking such course/test to actually come away from it and impliment what was being promoted if they happen to disagree with what these courses might teach?
What makes you think that the basic things that will be mentioned in this book won't be correct or the accepted way? it wouldn't be a set single-line instruction saying "you MUST do this!" it will have many ways that are all correct, that the new licence owner can then decide on which one they like best or find most appropriate for their reptile. It is also aimed to give them the nudge into doing their own research for what is best for them and their reptiles.

Also its been touched on already that there is no such thing in place for any other pets so why should reptiles be singled out?
Like I said, maybe there should be.
Think about how much paper goes into your rubbish bin (or hopefully recycling bin) every day from advertising and junk put in your mailbox, including rubbish from the government.

You know those little series that the courier mail runs occasionally? "for the next six weeks in the newspaper you can collect a set of mini-magazines". The could do a promotion like that, where each week you get a little booklet or magazine about how to look after an animal. week 1: dogs, week 2: cats, week 3: fish, week 4: birds, week 5: rodents, week 6: reptiles. Or just stick it straight in your letterbox, as a national incentive.

I'm not trying to outdo anyone of money, eg authors of pet owning books, but a lot of people don't want to buy books or think that what they are doing already is ok. If it is something they can browse through because it's already sitting on their kitchen bench, well that is another story.

-penny
 
I know almost as many reptile keepers without a lisense as i do with one. These people are not interested in having a lisense, regardless if they cost nothing. They have absolutly no problems breeding and selling reptiles through out the country. The majority of them only keep native reptiles as well. A lot of people simply think the lisensing system and the way you have to pay to import/export, fill out needless paperwork, is just too much hassle. And the majority are not cowboys like some people would think, their just average people who dont agree with all the needless paperwork involved with having a lisense. These are just facts.
 
This isn't about making everyone get a licence, it's about getting information to new licence owners so that they can have a good start.

-penny
 
Are you trying to have an argument about this!

It is widely known, there are hundreds of individuals un-licensed in NSW, many of these people have extensive collections of exotic reptiles. There is barely a week that goes by that i'm not offered any. On top of this numerous kids collect reptiles from the wild and keep them as they don't know any better or don't have sufficient $ to get started.

We receive at our reptile unit donations of unlicensed animals from unlicensed keepers all the time.

So earthling should have an amnesty so we can get the stats you desire? Would this be the best thing?

A discussion/argument is good a heated argument no. Ive had the odd exotic offered to me but not the numbers you describe. I would not accept the view that their are a very large number on someones 'belief' alone...I dont believe things that easily..however if people like yourself come forward and tell me what is being offered and how often well then I would certainly have proof that a 'large' number of exotics are out their...and my view would change as a result.

If these people are not interested in getting a licence,period,a small increase in cost and a information session and/or questionaire and booklet is not going to change them...but it would help the people who would like to get a licence but feel they cant as of current reps yeah?

If people are going to keep reps without a licence perhaps an amnesty would be best. Gives them the chance to become legal if australian animals...and to register their exotics with hopefully the proviso that they dont breed. Many states have done amnesties before and it works well....not for all but it certaily assists.
 
What is the EPA like on keepeing venemous herps???. Are they very strict up here??????
 
If people are going to keep reps without a licence perhaps an amnesty would be best. Gives them the chance to become legal if australian animals...and to register their exotics with hopefully the proviso that they dont breed. Many states have done amnesties before and it works well....not for all but it certaily assists.

No way, that is a license to go and rape the wild! Can you imagine how many snake would be collected so they could be converted legally via an amnesty.
 
No, because if word got out that it was going to happen, Fed Ex would be innundated.

Yes earthing i have seen over a dozen collections of exotics. I may get criticised for not dobbing them in but i don't see it good for my health or family to do so.

I could get you virtually anything you wanted with a phonecall if it were legal. Anything from eyelash vipers through to venemous bearded lizards.

For example a burmese python can have over 100 young in a clutch, where are all these going?
 
Penny, I'm not sure what your point is.

Its seems that you want people to complete a test that is in actual fact just completing a care sheet. Sounds good, but as i said before there is nothing stopping people copying answers of the net, filling the answers in and then sending it off without even a attempt to properly study the animals they want.

In your last post it looks like you would like a care sheet written in a exam. Not sure what exactly it is you are pushing for! :?
 
I get the same feeling. A care sheet covers the most acceptable right things to do for your animals based on all of the literature and peoples experiences.

I think you energy would be better served getting the relevant authorities to distribute comprehensive care sheets for commonly kept animals when registering a transaction. Other animals could be grouped in a care sheet such as dragons, skinks, pythons etc.
 
Initially I was saying that it would be a good idea to have a basic husbandry course as a necessary step in acquiring a licence. I still think this would be the best way as nothing beats hands-on experience, but as it has come to my attention, and as this thread has evolved, I now realise that there are many people that would not be able to attend such a course, and many that would not want to.

So now I am suggesting that they create a booklet of "care sheets" for each individual family of reptiles (skinks, colubrids, pythons, dragons, etc) that is covered by the licence you are applying for. The point of the quiz is to say that you have read the book and found the answers in the quiz. The booklet can be kept as a reference.

It would be pretty hard to not learn anything while answering the questions and finding the answers.

The little bit of a ramble about the government making care booklets for all pets was just to say that "they don't do it for other animals, why would they for reptiles?" is no excuse, and there really should be easy-to-access information about all domestic pets.

-penny
 
You'll find this has been discussed countless times, at great length, over the last few years. With the diversity of species people keep and the detailed and varied methods people use for each, you couldn't give out all of the necessary information in a booklet of less than several thousands pages. Many of us have spent many thousands of dollars on husbandry books - you couldn't possibly hope to give people what they need in a simple booklet, however, if you attempted to, many people would think that they had all of the information they needed and would not bother to seek any more, so giving the information out would cause more harm than good. If any information is giving out, it should be about two or three sentences along the lines of "Reptiles require specialised care and it is absolutely essential that you seek as much information as needed to give your animals everything that they need". Perhaps they could give directions to sources of information, pointing out that that list is by no means complete. Anything more would be counterproductive.
 
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