Take a look please.

[Kersten]

No probs :wink: Figured I'd better say something before the pedantic police hopped on your case and made a big deal of it You're absolutely right though, it's still horrible and cruel.

 

[AntaresiaLady]

LOL Kersten

Yeah I'm glad too!

 

[indicus]

To true TB....
It's not a matter of Ramond bashing etc; it's the stupid arguements that seem to support the notion that taking an elapid and turning it into a venomiod is a acceptable practice. It might very well be if you didnt appreciate the animal for what it is.....how can one who considers themselves to have a passion for reptiles honestly believe this is of any benefit to the elapid in anyway?. Just the mere concept of taking the venomous abilities away from an animal that has evolved as a specialized hunter over millions of years; is just criminal....eg: Be like taking the wings off an eagle....Arrr, it's fine, it can still eat and hunt; just hops around after it's prey; sounds stupid; because it is. How the hell does turning an elapid into a venomoid serve any benefit to the unfortunate animal in question?; or offer any benefits regarding education?. Am i to assume it's for the benefit of the demonstrators ego?; or is it simply self preservation for somebody who is obviously cannot handle an elapid as is? How does allowing the public to hang an elapid around ones neck, free handle in a casual manner or to that effect, teach one a sense of respect for that animal and it's capabilities.....i think not. I'm not arguing whether it's painfull or not, its just morally unethical and unnecessary if your a competent handler. Yes accidents can happen and do, in any field that has an element of danger associated to it.....thats life. There are those out there that have been handling elapids for a long time without resorting to this type of mutilation. Lastly to address those that believe we as a community of supposed reptile enthusiasts should keep quite and accept this type of practise; and other issues such as filthy Pet shops, dodgy keepers etc etc by not speaking out...... this would be gutless and would be an injustice to reptiles and herpetology alike. Its moral obligation which i feel we must uphold.

 

[cris]

The petition is only about the procedure and the lack of anasthetic

Im still wait for someone to direct me to evidence that sticking them in the fridge doesnt do this... but i guess it would be better to boot them full of stuff that will probably kill them or not work anyway, yeah that would be heaps better. can i join your Ray/void bashing club yet?

I think i should start a petition to give free elephant beer to all

 

[newtosnakes]

Just pointing out what his defense will be.

Honestly I don't care 1 way or another whether it is stopped or not.
What somebody else does with his animals in his home has no effect on me so I have no reason to participate in lynching them. I do not know Ray, therefore I do not hate him nor like him. I do however like a good argument hence stirring the pot in this thread. But what I don't like is reading slanderous posts continually. Every 2nd post these days are about so called dirty pet shops, dobbing in some keeper or bagging Ray Hoser & Steve Irwin and I am sick of hearing about it. GET A LIFE!

The fact is the petition was started by people with personal grudges against Ray. And every person that signed also has issues with Ray aside from voids. Like I keep saying if it wasn't venomoids it would be some other matter for you all to bitch about because EVERYBODY LOVES RAY lol

What he does does not effect me in anyway. I don't lose money from it, my family don't suffer from it, I am not homeless because of it, and my animals are not un-healthy because of it. But you lot act as if what he does/says/writes is tearing your life apart haha. And I don't just mean voids.

PS:
Anyway I am obviously not participating in a petty petition that will not make any changes so there is no reason to aim attention at me anymore

I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....

 

[pixie]

I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....

same for me

 

[koubee]

I'm not signing this petition, i've seen his show and he dosen't wave the venomoid snakes around in front of young kids, in fact, the kids don't even get to touch them.
Yes, children (5 & up) understand, when explained to them, the difference between a venomous and a python. Education is the ONLY way kids will learn.
I'm not a person who is all for animal crulety, but i really don't think this will stop elapids becoming venomiods.

Just my 2 cents, don't mean to upset anyone.

 

[cris]

Just my 2 cents, don't mean to upset anyone

:lol: lucky this isnt ark or you would be booted :lol:
I personally think his style of show is a great step foward in teaching the general public that snakes are not evil things trying to kill them(going on what ive read) all snakes shows i have seen involve someone swinging a agro elapid around grabbing its tail and holding it away with a hook. That just makes ppl think wow that thing is crazy and if i see one ill sort it out

but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?

I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....

generalisations are only for a mob individuals dont have to worry about generalisations(well thats my theory anyway)

 

[newtosnakes]

cris, i do worry about generalisations when the following occurs:

statement - everyone who signed this petition has other grudges against ray
fact - i signed the statement
assumption - i therefore hold an ulterior grudge against ray
fact - as said i have no such grudge as I have never met the man nor had dealings with him so have nothing to base a grudge on. Therefore putting me in the category is a generalisation.

 

[Australis]

but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?

Where is the "proof" it does work??????



Matt

 

[cris]

Where is the "proof" it does work

sounds like you dont know much about the subject, im waiting for someone who does know to answer...
well if you stick your own hand in a bucket of icy water and cut it with a scaple i dont think you will feel much, obviously this isnt the same, but i havnt seen anything to make me think Rays method isnt better than alternative anethesia methods.

 

[newtosnakes]

cris, when you cut yourself with a scaple i suggest hooking yourself up to a heartrate and blood pressure monitor and tell me what happens when you cut yourself, you may not feel it but your body will sure as heck register the pain....

pz. pics or it didn't happen.

 

[newtosnakes]

maybe ps even....

 

[cris]

cris, when you cut yourself with a scaple i suggest hooking yourself up to a heartrate and blood pressure monitor and tell me what happens when you cut yourself, you may not feel it but your body will sure as heck register the pain....

pz. pics or it didn't happen.

Never tried myself but cold temps do induce a numbness(spelling?) in humans, i dont cut myself or anything but i do know this to be true. If you dont feel the pain its impossible for your body to know, well unless you are looking and then its only up to if your brain is squimish(spelling?)

but im getting off the topic where is the proof that putting the snakes in the fridge doesnt work?

 

[AntaresiaLady]

I've had bodyparts be numbed by ice, but I was still able to feel it, it just wasn't as intense as it could have been. Don't know if it works the same in snakes. We could always try the old 'shot 'o' whiskey' method. Maybe that would work :shock:

Don't ask how this happened...! :shock:

 

[Australis]

If you dont feel the pain its impossible for your body to know, well unless you are looking and then its only up to if your brain is squimish

Dont think its impossible for your body to know, even if it doesnt register the pain, there are cases of people with conditions such as congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis(CIPA), who dont feel pain, but there body can still react to it.


The owness of proof is on Hoser to prove that the snakes he operates on dont feel pain!

I guess its you who doesnt know much on the subject, other than reading Rays pseudoscience papers :roll:


Matt

 

[cris]

Where can I buy one of these venomoiid thingies, they sound cool? ":

:lol:

I guess its you who doesnt know much on the subject, other than reading Rays pseudoscience papers

I never said i know thats why i was asking.

 

[imported_Acanthophis]

Hey Cris,
I have found a reference regarding the use of hypothermia to induce anaesthesia suggesting it is not viable.
"Surgical Removal of Venom Glands in Australian Elapid Snakes-Reply" by Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc, in "The Crocodilian" Journal of the Victoria Association of Amateur Herpetologists. Volume 6 Issue 1, May 2006.

All the Best,
Chris.

 

[Bob2]

I have to say I'm with Cris on this one. If, as Hoser claims, they are taking feeds soon after the operation, I find it hard to believe that the snakes find it as horrific as we might like to think.
[putting on my thick skin suit]

 

[cris]

Hey Cris,
I have found a reference regarding the use of hypothermia to induce anaesthesia suggesting it is not viable.
"Surgical Removal of Venom Glands in Australian Elapid Snakes-Reply" by Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc, in "The Crocodilian" Journal of the Victoria Association of Amateur Herpetologists. Volume 6 Issue 1, May 2006.

All the Best,
Chris.

dude im not going to buy something to read an alternative view that is "suggesting" that its not viable, im interested in some evidence or logical theory that says that its not better than practical alternative methods of anaesthesia.